To paint or not to paint? THAT! is the question

In response to irrelevant topics posted other forums (hehe hehe) I thought I'd make it a relavant topic.

Can someone please tell me what the benefit of painting hangers is? I know many places require them due to visibility. What are the "rules" at some of your local climbing spots?

One further, would it be right to remove a perfectly GOOD, unpainted bolt and hanger and replace it with a painted one?

"Its like a territorial pissing or something."

I've never seen anyone write their name on hangers before. Must take some time.

Some night when I am drunk I am going to etch funny shit into my unused hangers... Can anyone think of any good one liners?

Not that this has anything to do with anything, but speaking of good one liners... True story, on some guy's tombstone he had written, "I made an ash of myself." Still find myself laughing at that one.

In regards to the actual topic "To paint or not to paint?" I personally think it is silly, there is nothing worse than passing by a bolt and not being able to see it because it was camoflauged too well.
And I am no geologist, but there are crystals in granite that are shiny in the sun, what the hell is the difference if a crystal or a hanger glitters at someone down on the road? Am I an idiot?

On the flip side, recently I was talking to someone who was pissed off because he was canyoneering (non technical) and was in this really crazy, spiritual, in the middle of no where place and he looked up and saw some bolts and webbing and it ruined his experience. So I don't know.

My thought, if you are worried about it, buy the metolius camo bolts, but painting it yourself is a waste of time and in the long run the paint chips and looks like shit, not to mention polluting the environment with paint chips that birds could eat and die from.... no I have not started drinking yet.

FWIW-I really don't care one way or the other, I am just commenting for comments sake.

By painting the hangers you cut down the shine,"good thing"
righting your name on them, kinda weird and some what LAME.

Steve, I promote them on sport climbs because they offer less visual impact toward the non-climber using public space as a nature walk. On protected slab climbs with larger interval spacing, camo placements are more a hinderance to climber safety & don't detract from the visual observer of an area. In either case, I feel fixed anchors work better than tat for the visual impact.

However, I will be the first to tell someone to go to hell if they don't like the "way" a climber looks on "their" rock.

No, removal of a good placement just to place another bolt for the sake of visual is not something I would say was right -- but taking off the hanger and re-placing it after camo'ing it; I don't see a problem. Taking out the stud & placing another is too much of an impact when it's unnecessary. Not patching a hole is crap.

"Can anyone think of any good one liners (on hangers)?" -- No Trespassing! or No Climbing past this point!

Mark Nelson wrote:"Can anyone think of any good one liners (on hangers)?" -- No Trespassing! or No Climbing past this point!

No finger banging.

Wet paint.

If found, mail to.....

My grandkids are cuter than yours.

Okay, that's enough for now, I'm stumbling to bed (not to be included in the one liners)

Okay, okay...one more!

My hole is tighter than yours.

Oh god, this is fun, even if it only makes sense to me this time of night.

Who's your daddy?

Barely legal.

FYI: I just got off from a 16 1/2 hour shift. ; Q

God bless Gigette.....

Anyway, we've all seen it when you're approaching a (sport)crag and the sun's just right, the hangers look like a long row of little headlights. In an area that is shared with other users, it is an obligation to use painted hangers and lessen the possibility of generating conflict. At places like Shelf or Penetente, where only climbers go, then not so important.

Here's a variation on the subject: Last time I was at Fremont Canyon several of the routes there had engraved brass tags with the rating bolted down to the rock. As a plumbing/pipefitting contractor, I have to get brass tags stamped with valve numbers. I actually have made a pile with the YDS #'s; but never installed any due to the obvious "ethical" implications. But in an area where no guide is forthcoming or the existing one's are confusing, I think they aren't a bad idea (your own routes only).

I think painting hangars/chains/rings is an awesome way to hide bolts from people who don't need to see them. We have even gone to local "sport parks", and painted all of the offending hangers we could in place. You need to be careful doing this-protect the rock with a piece of cardboard, or a milk jug, and spray away. If you first prime, then paint, then clear shellac lastly, you will have a professional and long lasting paintjob. Good one liners for putting on your bolts- Not a step. Insert coin here-not finger. And as far as not being able to see the bolt as a climber-too bad if someone doesn't see it, that's part of the game.

gigette is my hero.

Is painting done by TC because of the regs at City of Rocks/Castle Rocks? Maybe he has a bunch left over from when they banned him for being so hard to work with or something.

Who goes anywhere near the rocks in lcc besides climbers anyway?

thanks steve for this topic.

As someone that deals with Access all the time, and rebolting, I am a strong supporter of painting hangers and using brown chain instead of webbing. The paint helps camo the bolts and anchors, but perhaps even more important, it shows that we as a user group recognize that we have a visual impact and that we try and mitigate. This is important to land managers and can only help in the long run.
OK< the paint comes off over time, but not completely, and the bolts often blend better with time in the field.
Please paint any fixed anchors. In the long run, it can only help us.

As for removing and then relpacing witha painted, one, here is the better option... climb with a template and a can of paint... just fix it up in place while your coming down.

In the original post Steve wrote, "One further, would it be right to remove a perfectly GOOD, unpainted bolt and hanger and replace it with a painted one?"
I used to bring a cardboard template with me that had a hanger shaped hole cut out in the middle, which could be layed over the bolt. Then you could spray paint the hanger without painting the rock.
On a side note. I can't remember who used to do it, but out in the desert I remember seeing homemade hangers bolt" imprinted on them. Now that was funny

Its a conundrum, to be sure.

My thoughts...

I paint most of my hangers. I buy the prepainted Fixe and Metolius, usually the tan ones, and then custom paint them to match the rock type and then put a splatter coat of that Rustoleum decorative paint on them. On some rock types, they are really hard to see. And, the prepainted ones just aren't that much more expensive than non painted.

Every blue moon, if I'm worried about a climber finding the bolt, I'll paint the very bottom of the hanger a bright yellow which is only visible directly below the bolt hanger, and not by a casual observer from a distance. Works ok in a place like Maple Canyon with a huge wall of steep cobbles..., especially bolt placements in between cobbles, in the matrix, which can help hide the bolts to begin with.

I'm with Sam. We need to minimize impact, visually especially. Out of sight, out of mind.

That said, stainless hangers do take on a hazy surface discoloration over a short time outside, and, for most rock types like limestone and granite, become pretty hard to see, and, stainless isn't shiny like the zinc plated hangers/bolts. Stainless is also much easier to paint.

Most routes, if they are put up reasonably, a climber will be able to find the bolts placed for pro if they match the drilled stances or clipping jugs or the route movement. If the bolted line follows a natural climbing line, the bolts should be right there. Even on long friction routes, there's usually a sweet spot line of weakness. That's partly why routes that are bolted ground up make sense, 'cause those stances will be where pro is naturally had.

Painting does also seem to delay some corrosion, especially professional type paint jobs and/or powder coating.

New, unpainted zinc plated bolt hangers are super shiny and an eyesore, especially a grid bolted or well bolted sport route. But, in time, these too get a haze on them and with some surface discoloration, they tend to disappear.

Like it or not, non climbers have a say especially with regard to "visual viewshed" (see the Twin Sisters area at the City of Rocks for example). On public land, its always a risk that climbing impact that is quantifiable, like, visible bolt hangers, could have a detrimental effect on access. I've sat through a few planning meetings with land managers, and, fixed pro is a concern, but, if they can't see it, its WAY less of a concern, especially if you can show them its no visible impact. Makes a huge difference.

Anyhoo...my two cents worth...

-Brian in SLC

a true enigma wrapped in a riddle, wrapped in a challupa!

I say minimize your impact in 2007, but that being said we have a lot more to worry about than cammoed, retro cammoed, retro-refit-rerigged-camo-branding. I think camo to a point is fine..most of the homejobs do wear off and looking pretty hobo though. Funny stuff on bolts and rap stations is a good time, but not for everyone....there are a few folks on here who put their names on their hangers...which I find kind of funny to....why not a little flag? Ta-da! Look at what I did! Hooray me!

Speaking of Challupas.....

Just use already painted heavy Metolius Rap Hangers and skip all the rest of it...

Healyje wrote:Just use already painted heavy Metolius Rap Hangers and skip all the rest of it...

Actually, don't. Grade 2 pig iron (they used to be, I see on their website they're now using 4130 steel, hmmm). They rust really quickly after a bit of paint is worn off. They groove out fast as the metal is soft (maybe just the older ones, though). Not very field maintainable as far as an anchor is concerned. They twist the rope if used in pairs. They aren't that strong given their mass (again, older version).

The Uriostes put their names on their bolt hangers. It's kind of a nice touch, actually. Gives you some sense of history when you clip an old rusty 1/4 inch Urioste bolt.

Paint sticks better to the pre-colored hangers. Buy them in tan, then paint them rust brown for sandstone.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:Paint sticks better to the pre-colored hangers. Buy them in tan, then paint them rust brown for sandstone.

That's great for sandstone but like Brian said, most (non-zinc plated) hangers grey and dull over time, matching the rock. If they do that, they why bother with all the rest?

The biggest thing is why bother with replacing perfectly good bolts with previously worn painted bolts? Why would you scribble your name in black marker?

Why?

Brian in SLC wrote: Actually, don't. Grade 2 pig iron (they used to be, I see on their website they're now using 4130 steel, hmmm). They rust really quickly after a bit of paint is worn off. They groove out fast as the metal is soft (maybe just the older ones, though). Not very field maintainable as far as an anchor is concerned. They twist the rope if used in pairs. They aren't that strong given their mass (again, older version).

Actually do and did - 58 anchor sets over the past two years. You can skip screwing with the chains entirely in most situations. And they are CroMoly, are absolutely fine relative to strength/mass/hardness.

As for "field maintainable" what the hell does that even mean - they're bolt hangers and you buy these suckers so you don't have to maintain them. You may want to hit them with paint every five years or so which, as Sam points out, is pretty simple to do with a template and a spray can. And "they twist the rope if used in pairs" I'd have to ask what what ropes you are using that has never been my experience, period. Matter of fact, I'd think you were joking if I didn't know otherwise. As for paint matching and rust, I further camo'd the Metolius hangers with a mix of black, tan, green spray paint for our mossy basalt. The CroMoly doesn't rust that bad - again, I assume you're speaking of older units - and they'll be repainted as required which I would suspect would be about every five to eight years up here.

Tony Calderone wrote:I've tried different things over the years and learned this much. I can't please everyone. So I just do what I believe is best and remain open and honest about everything I do. That doesn't mean I feel compelled to respond to every person flinging false accusations at me or calling me disparaging names. But if someone is respectful and sincerely wants to know what I did... I tell them. Puttting my name on hardware: If I don't do it climbers clamor to know who is responsible for placing them, false accusations fly and sometimes people's feelings get hurt. If I put my name on stuff some climbers who don't even know me may accuse me of being conceited but everyone knows what I did and know who to blame if they don't like it. I suspect the accusers have ego issues and that nobody else really cares. I use magic marker because it wears off quicker than paint. Nobody (including me) wants to see my name forever glaring at them on routes. But using marker lets people initially know who placed them so the only one who potentially gets abused is me. Metolius Rap Hangers: They initially have very low impact. But they rust pretty quickly, which eventually increases their long-term visual impact on most rock types via rock staining. Plated hangers: They rust faster than stainless hangers, which increases their long-term visual impact on most rock types via rock staining. Painting: Every visual impact climbers produce eventually threatens access to climbing. In the meantime it makes the area look less natural and many people, including some climbers, don't appreciate that. Careful painting, reduced-size & corrosion-resistant hardware reduces visual impacts. Replacing higher visual impact hardware with lower visual impact hardware that is just as strong or stronger: Why is anyone arguing about this?

Thank you for explaining the name thing. I guess I understand but maybe your initials would suffice? Why did you feel it was necessary to make the changes you did in the GWI? Anchor per anchor please. I'd like to hear your thinking about it so I can understand it better. You know no one is required to do this but it might help me know where you are coming from so I don't badger you all the time. I really am trying to understand but can't seem to.

Also, were the painted hangers you used previously used on other placements? Was the paint pre-worn? Why did you replace one set of the new anchors but not the other?

I know I've asked it before, but why isn't it ok on granite to let the grey bolts just turn more grey and blend in more naturally with the color of the rock.

Clay Watson