The Inevitable Peaks Crag Question

Hi ya'll, so a person posted up the Peaks Crag yesterday, and I sent them an email explaining that the local climbers who established the area are not, as of yet, all that keen on publishing the info on MP or any other site. It wasn't a matter of keeping it a secret (hard to do considering the crowds there), but rather to keep a local crag, local. This is not by any stretch of the imagination a destination crag, but being in the high country has its appeal. That said, I have talked with many folks about this issue, but obviously not everyone. My over all sense of the matter was that the people with the most interest in the area, and our NAZ community at large wanted it to remain off the grid. So I deleted the post.

I received an email in response, and the tone of it hints at attitudes I don't even want to deal with personally. Here it is;

Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 12:39 PM
Subject: The PEAKS

Howdy,

Don’t patronize me JJ. Looks like I didn’t have a choice with posting about the Peaks.

I think you guys should share.

I don’t really care about your agenda. Hiding behind “access and land management” is lame. Are you doing something you’re not supposed to be doing? Like power drilling within the wilderness area. Maybe a letter/call to the USFS will have to happen.

So if you don’t want to share then I will have to try harder. Maybe some fliers? That is pretty easy to hand out at other crags and gyms in PHX.

Maybe a small self published guide? How about a “The Peaks” website? That means that I get to take pictures, name climbs, make up ratings and all that.

That the super secret squire stuff is BS. So I will be genuine, give you the option of posting The Peaks on MP.com and getting all the credit.

GC

So... I became a voluntary administrator on MP because it seemed like we needed some sort of local input on the info being added to the Northern Arizona areas. I am more concerned about accurate route descriptions, than I am sorting out the complex issues surrounding access to the Peaks Crag. It's not my issue, and it's certainly out of my control at this point if people are throwing out threats.

The future of the Peaks Crag. Any thoughts?

So, the guy knows where the area is, knows that there is climbing there, and is pitching a fit that there isn't a guide or info on the net? Screw him.

I realize that I'm not a local and have no influence whatsoever, but I do come from a part of the country that was built on secret areas, hidden trail heads, no guidebooks, etc. The CCC even wrote letters to Climbing asking them not to publish photos or info about the climbing here.

My friend put it best last week:

I think there are a lot of newer climbers out there that feel like it should be made easier, because it was frustrating for them at first. They feel like they are providing a service, and don't understand that this is just the way it's always been done.

You are supposed to get lost, go to the wrong wall, get on the wrong route, get a little scared. That's why climbing is so much fun. Because even though it might not be "fun" when those things are happening, at the end of the day you can't deny that you had a good time and that you'll go back for more!

OK, after reading your post again I realize that you may have deleted something based on your personal feelings (or maybe not, I dunno). That's an issue to be taken up in the Admin forum... or at least that's where I'd do it.

They've helped me figure out some things about shit routes being posted in the Thai section.

Personally I'd just keep deleting stuff and not even worry about it, but that's probably not the best course of action. Good thing I'm not a NC Admin, eh? ;)

If you're not allowing the area to be posted because the developers don't want it posted, then can I bolt a route there and post info on it (just so long as I don't post info about the other routes)? How is this area considered secret when most of the people in the state know about it?

There seems to be some big questions here.

1) Does JJ have the mentality and or the maturity to be an adim here?

Having a personal agenda to execute and posting Personal Messages for all to see.

Not kosher. At all.

2) Are the The Peaks in a wilderness area and are people power bolting there?

If so, so much for the area developers having respect for the land and the rules that have been set by the land manages.

That has to be the worst way to have a good relationship with the USFS. Pretty much everything that the Access Fund is all about.

3) Are all routes, areas, pictures, comment subject to an Admins approval or have to be approved by a poll.

I am just trying to figure this out. Obviously there are folks on either side of this one, and all I am trying to do is open it up so both sides can have their say. And just to reiterate, the crag is not a secret at this point, it just isn't published anywhere. The "personal message" was stripped of anything truly personal. The initials are not even real.

The crag has about an equal number trad routes as sport routes, and it does lay on wilderness.

I have no personal agenda on MP. I'm just trying to help out. I don't get anything for putting my time in here, and very few people even notice many of the corrections and changes I make.

This thread isn't about me. This thread is about whether or not publishing the Peaks Crag would be good for the community or not good for the community.

BASE:

Yes, as far as I know it is up to the Admin to approve anything that gets added to their section on this site. Only once have I noticed that stuff got posted in the Thai section w/o me approving it, and I assume it was approved by another Admin... or maybe it was automatically done by MP... I don't know.

I don't agree w/ posting personal messages, and I can't say that I would have gone about it in the same way that JJ did, but I think he thought it through, and obviously didn't call anyone out personally.

You are correct about the power drilling issue. Hell, where I'm from it's not the USFS or BLM you have to worry about, it's the locals. I sincerely hope that no one is breaking federal laws to put up sport climbs. Not cool.

JJ:

You are in a tough spot and this is why I suggest that you head to the Private Admin forum for advice. Posting in public about whether you should publicize a secret area that a lot of people already know about is just going to cause problems.

I know that you don't get anything for putting in your time here, but that is not how most members view it. You have the "Administrator" tag under your name, and I know from experience that people will view what you say differently because of that word. You have to be careful... a lesson that I am obviously still learning (probably shouldn't have said what I did in that first post, but I ain't gonna delete it either).

In the end, you should make sure that you are doing what is right for the climbing community in your area. That is what I do... I know that I am in a position to write honestly and passionately about the climbing in Thailand, and I get the most up to date info about the climbing there.

You have to ask yourself... if you don't already know the answer to the question you are asking (should you post about Peaks Crag or not), should you really be an admin for the area? I'd love to be an admin for NC, but I have to be honest with myself and admit that I am not really a local here anymore.

Good luck.

I'm not an AZ climber and I don't foresee myself climbing there anytime soon. My opinion on whether or not the crag should remain secret has and should have no bearing. I am, however, concerned with your argument that if the info isn't already on MP then it shouldn't be on MP. I understand that there are some nuances here and that it may not be on MP due to the wishes of the route developers as opposed to any lack of interest in it being there. Even accounting for this distinction though, it shouldn't matter. Either Mountain Project is a website for climbers, dedicated to building a community and all that that entails (including sharing beta) or it's not. Deleting a post just because a group of dedicated route developers wants it deleted flies in the fact of the ethos with which this site is run. I'm sure that EVERY area has routes that someone wishes would stay secret. Unless you admins intend to form a board to review and approve every route submission that goes into the database, I don't think this is an issue you particularly want to or should deal with. Back off and let the community that this site ostensibly fosters handle itself. Besides - and at the risk of sounding douchy - Arizona doesn't have to worry about being overrun with hordes of climbers, all salivating to sample this new, super-secret area. Keeping it hidden seems more like an ego thing to me anyway.

So.... I've been really, really trying to stay out of the NAZ bashing as of late, seems like nothing good will come of it. But I can't bite my tongue any longer. Why, oh why would you threaten to embark on a course of action that could potentially harm access for ALL CLIMBERS! just because some folks (right or wrong) would prefer an area remain somewhat quite? Maybe there is some personal history that is not being revealed but regardless what good can come of any of this. I applaud JJ for putting this question to the masses, but really why can't we (as a community) leave well enough alone? Why is it that folks from abroad have such an issue with the NAZ contingency saying hey, lets leave this one off the web? I'm sure the Mill creek crowd would agree. (I actually think I almost got shanked there last year after showing up with a topo sketched from memory!) All kidding aside, don't take everything so personally and rather than threatening to destroy something great, say "hey if thats the local request no worries." I certainly hope that you wouldn't cruise over to the Czech Republic and say "f climbing with these lame knots I'm bolting this joint" (don't read too much into this analogy, it has nothing to do with the bolting not bolting debate, if you don't get ask someone who does. ) Anyhow before I get more off topic than I am I just want to say that I consider JJ to be a good friend and I find it disappointing that his attempts to do the right thing (putting it out to the community) are met with such disdain. Very disappointing. And lastly as always anonymous posters, in my mind carry very little weight.

Just so you know, there is a disk guid to the peaks that is being sold at gyms (vertical relief being one of them) and all four of the gyms in the valley. So the INFO is out there and is accessible, so why not just put it online? 10 bucks says every one just goes to the Draw any ways.

Priest Draw was the exact same scenario just over 10 yrs ago; then Rampage hit the VHS scene. Then came the masses. You can't stop it, you can only hope to contain it.

The guide on cd being sold at the gyms is for the bouldering area which is a completely different area, not to be confused with the "peaks"rope area.

I remember a time when Northern Arizona climbing was a secret- There very limited resources about routes and if you wanted to climb here you came and found the climbers at Crystal Creek or at Alpine Pizza and you sat down and talked to them. Topos were drawn on napkins and guidebooks got you lost. Everything was sandbagged.

I came way after the original first and second wave of climbers were here, yet I had the opportunity to climb with a few of them and they all were great at taking a new guy under their wing and showing them the ropes. I feel fortunate. We climbed and then drank some beer and then climbed again the next day.

This secret area became very public when computers allowed instant access to information. Good or bad, that is the way it is.

Living here is not easy as most climbers can attest and we are here because of the area and community and the climbing- Poverty with a view!

Why don't we sit down at the Table of Scorn (or so to speak), have a few beers and hash out our differences regarding this issue. That seems to be the way it should be.

Eric Meudt

I publish routes, areas, and photos here and in guidebooks. I am a climber and I love climbing. Climbers are my community not Tucson climbers not Arizona climbers. I am happy to share the climbs and climbing areas that give me so much pleasure.

To those who gripe about the masses and the posting of routes on MP.com I would say this.

If you want it to stay secret:

DON'T TELL ANYONE, PERIOD.
DON'T TELL ANYONE, PERIOD.
DON'T TELL ANYONE, PERIOD.

The peaks is not a secret. You can probably reduce the number of visitors if you don't publish information. However, word of mouth will still make it a place people want to visit.

As far as the crowds I suggest you be as friendly as possible to all you meet. I have made lifelong friends this way.

Cwaters, you are actually talking about a bouldering guide to a different area by the same name, so, no, they are not selling a guide down at VR.

JJ- I can't believe you are as reasonable and patient as you are with the "input" you've been getting. The way I see it is that you and others have invested huge amounts of sweat, time, and money putting up routes there and elsewhere. That means you get to decide if and how to publish, just like Manny and others thought Iso should be treated a bit differently based on their devotion to that place and their hard work and investment. To me, it is about respect. You don't paddle out at lunada bay without due caution. Does that mean all breaks, or crags, should be localized? Of course not. But there is history to our great endeavor. People should learn about it a little before yakking on mtn project. The history of the peaks should be learned and respected, and it comes from those who explored the place and realized it's potential.

I cannot imagine why someone would basically threaten and blackmail you about posting the peaks. But I don't like where that would take climbing. I'm glad there are places like mill creek and like the pit and the forks and the peaks. Each has it's own character. The developers preserving some of that character is a good thing.

A site isn't secret once people who don't know where it is know its out there. Then its just being kept hidden by some people from other people. Open and cooperative climbing community self regulation is probably not possible, but maybe hidden sites make it more difficult in some cases.
I respect the work and investment that had gone into equipping those routes. I am also completely sympathetic with the no chipping policy that has been maintained there and that should be the norm everywhere. I have always wondered why it wasn't developed as more of a mixed area. That rock is conducive to mixed routes with some bolts and some natural gear. Some of the better routes require gear, but some of the easier routes have perfect bomber gear placements right near bolts. Some routes wouldn't go without bolts all the way up, but that isn't true for a number of the moderate routes. Where I used to climb in NC, that sort of area would have been a mixed area. If you want to keep that area quiet (as do I), remove the bolts near decent gear placements on the moderate to mid level routes.

md3 wrote:Where I used to climb in NC, that sort of area would have been a mixed area. If you want to keep that area quiet (as do I), remove the bolts near decent gear placements on the moderate to mid level routes.

DUDE! You weren't supposed to tell anyone that there is climbing here! Don't you know what SECRET means!?

In all seriousness, md3 is right. Someone is coming out w/ a new guidebook for Moore's Wall next year (probably to make money), and as locals, we are kind of worried. But then we remembered that the people we don't want to see... well, they won't/can't climb here anyways because there are no bolts and the gear is hard to see from below and hard to place. That's why North Carolina is NEVER EVER crowded... it's real climbing, where adventure and risk are still part of the game.

Bolting a bunch of sport routes when they could go on gear/mixed is asking for crowds.

First and foremost THANK YOU JJ for your ongoing and relentless commitment to Northern Arizona climbing. You are a pillar of our climbing community and your many other contributions dont even need to be mentioned here.
It is no longer an issue of secrecy. Climbers from all over AZ know about this little gem. This is an issue of access. As of right now there has been no dialog with the F.S. and the concern being that if the cards are not laid on the table gently and intelligently. WE WILL ALL LOOSE THIS CRAG.
I have seen The Peaks grow from infancy and have put many hours into helping create a location that is not only incredible climbing but in an amazing location. From day one it has been the goal to create a location that would be shared with ANYONE that is interested but in a grassroots method. No written guide, no internet.
To anyone that climbs at the Peaks:
Help maintain this crag and keep it special.
Use the trails.
Pack in pack out.
Respect the San Francisco Peaks Wilderness with your best intentions.

Jeff Snyder

Why can't climbers in this state cohabitate better? There always seems to be something going on.
Don't make threats of ruining access for all because you don't agree with someone. Reach out to them to try and get a better understanding on why they feel the way they do. It seems some 90% of issues could be solved if the two sides just talked. Hear each others views and learn the whole story. There might be more you don't know.

J. Snyder wrote:Climbers from all over AZ know about this little gem. This is an issue of access. As of right now there has been no dialog with the F.S. and the concern being that if the cards are not laid on the table gently and intelligently. WE WILL ALL LOOSE THIS CRAG.

It is a great crag and it would be a damn shame if the community lost it! That would be horrible.

I suggest all the developers of the area get together and discuss the best way to go about informing the F.S. Figure out the best way to "lay the cards on the table". I would also suggest you consider contacting the Access Fund for their input and possibly support. Best of luck!!!

JJ, thank you for all that you do for the community. If you are looking for some sort of middle ground; George's suggestion sounds like to best one yet. Good luck to you too!

muttonface wrote: A new guide to Moore's you say? :D !! I LOVE that place. Oh, by the way, I didn't bitch about anything, and besides the old jeep road, I found everything on my own. Even the gully that separates the Amphitheater from the right side of Moore's (not that that's any big accomplishment). I didn't post in any forum or blog about how it would be more convenient if there were bolted anchors at the top of some of the routes. I searched and toiled for a few of the rap stations, and I walked the trail on the ridge in climbing shoes all the way back down to my pack- at Sentinel. Basically, I was a well-behaved out of towner that adopted the local ethics and practices and had a killer time doing it. A guidebook is made for people like me IMO. I'd probably buy it.

There are already two pretty good guides ('95 and '02) that include Moore's, but it's layout and lack of fixed anchors and pro still make it the kind of place that most people won't enjoy. Hell it was my third or fourth time before I starting realizing how amazing that place is.

If you're prepared to head up there and figure things out for yourself then the locals welcome you :) And a little bitching is all in good fun, as long as you respect the area and realize why it has been kept the way that is has. I probably say "Fuckin' Moore's Wall" every time I get on a new route there haha.

The new guide is will include 4 NC Piedmont climbing areas and is supposed to be very nice. It will probably make Pilot and Crowders busier but those places are already shit shows and they suck. No one that enjoys those places would like Moore's Wall. My guess is that the guide will just keep all the bullshit in the same place and make Moore's that much better!

Don't let the tribes see this thread!

Pave the Peaks
Tongue in cheek