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The Flatirons post-flood
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By CJC
Oct 7, 2013
brenta wrote:
CJC, I was there today and I saw with my eyes. Everybody can go there and verify that you are a liar. There is no appreciable damage from the point where you leave the loop all the way to the East Bench. One crosses the drainage you keep babbling about at the base of the Second or right after the Bluebell Shelter, depending on the approach, and no more. The trail that goes by the base of the Second is among those that were opened first, right after the initial installment of Sept 21. The most damaged trails encountered in the whole journey are actually the ones immediately adjacent to Chautauqua, and those were the very first to be reopened. All this is easily verifiable. Unless you have no idea how to reach the East Bench by the standard trail, that is. Incidentally, I did the whole loop counterclockwise to check conditions. There are two short stretches that were affected by the runoff of that drainage in the two points where it intersects the loop. They were certainly damaged, and some preliminary repair may have taken place there, but that's it. There is no conspiracy. Only facts and words that are there for all to see. But those without arguments resort to insults.


you're confused. or stupid.

and kind of a prick.

there is major damage to the trail to the 3rd. it just reopened. those are the only facts here. the rest is garbage you are making up in your head. give it a rest dude, your incoherent rambling isn't helpful in any way.

FLAG
By Flatirons Climbing Council
Oct 9, 2013
There’s an Open Space Board of Trustees Mtg this evening, 6-8pm, City Council Chambers, 1777 Broadway. Among the agenda items are the Director’s Updates on: a) Flood Impacts to OSMP and b) Open Space Access during Flood Recovery. An FCC representative will speak about nighttime restrictions, off-trail restrictions and the general pace of re-opening the Flatirons. The public is invited to speak.

Also from 6-8pm this evening, 15 climber volunteers will meet with OSMP Staff to learn trail-assessment methods so we can help expedite the re-opening of climbing access.

FLAG
By Gregger Man
Oct 9, 2013
gg
Do you have to be a Boulder county resident to speak at the meeting?

FLAG
By Flatirons Climbing Council
Oct 9, 2013
The latest round of trail openings include some trails on Bear and and South Boulder Peak, Shadow Canyon, Fern Canyon and part of the Mesa Trail. Please see this map for details. These areas are open to on-trail hiking during daylight hours. Despite these openings, climbing remains frustratingly closed. Answers to come.

FLAG
By fossana
From Bishop, CA
Oct 9, 2013
downclimb off the First Flatiron <br />photo by TooTallTim
Gregger Man wrote:
Do you have to be a Boulder county resident to speak at the meeting?


From Buzz:

Anyone can speak. Speakers sign up with the Clerk upon arrival and are called in order of signing up. People state their address - which can clearly be outside the City - then have 3 minutes. Everyone is polite and friendly.

FLAG
By mc kaiser
From Boulder, CO
Oct 9, 2013
Me
brenta wrote:
You entirely missed my point. Congratulations.

Brenta, that final thought wasn't directed at you alone. You entirely missed my point. Congratulations.
Clarification of your point would actually be helpful.
brenta wrote:
If this were not an election year, I wonder how this situation would play out.

This I did misread, and I apologize. But maybe you could expand on this thought?
brenta wrote:
And who would be those? Please, quote; no paraphrase.

Er...

Animal Chin wrote:
Makes me want to go up and grid bolt the Flatirons or ride my bike down the Mesa trail every Sat. in protest. Please City of Boulder officials save me from myself! Nature was so dangerous until you fixed it up for me. I'm so glad Open Space is totally protected...from actually doing anything with it.


brenta wrote:
Which trails/formations are you talking about and when?

The First was opened a couple weeks after the flood. The Third recently reopened. The other trails have been opened to allow some access for hikers, and minimal repairs were done to all of these. Was that not quick enough for you?
I'll take the ensuing insults, taunts, and ad hominems off the air.
Go out and climb! Shit's open!

FLAG
By Flatirons Climbing Council
Oct 11, 2013
A team of volunteers met w/ OSMP Wed (Oct 9) to get schooled on all matters pertaining to assessing climbing-access in closed areas. I think I can speak for the 19 or so volunteers in the room by saying we were impressed with OSMP’s preparation and materials, from forms and maps to comprehensive instructions.

People are assessing access today and more will be out this weekend and into next week. As zones are assessed the data and images will promptly get to OSMP for their review and planning.

At the Open Space Board of Trustees meeting Wed night an FCC rep spoke to the Board and OSMP decision-makers on behalf of the climbing community. They know not only where the climbing community stands but also our passion on a variety of issues – from off-trail and nighttime restrictions to the re-opening process.

OSMP has set-up two separate pages for posting re-opening updates, one for trails and another for climbing terrain. We’ll continue to post updates in this thread.

As a reminder, the only Flatirons climbing terrain currently open are portions of the First and Third Flatiron. See this image for details.

Climbing guides and their clients will be pleased to learn that, effective immediately, OSMP has reinstated Commercial Use Permits.

FLAG
By A. Roberts
From Boulder, CO
Oct 11, 2013
Zenyatta
I climbed "Freeway" on the 2nd last Sunday, even talked with a Ranger at the bottom, and she never said the climb was closed. There was a lot of debris up to the left of the start (mostly between the large boulder and the wall), so I could see how they may want to keep people from going up left to access the other climbs, but there would be no logical reason not to let people climb the Freeway route. It starts from an open trail, and tops out at an open trail.

FLAG
 
By CJC
Oct 14, 2013
its all OSMP.

get a map.

FLAG
By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Oct 14, 2013
...
LOL!

FLAG
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Oct 14, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.
JLP wrote:
They're useless and should all be fired. ~$20k and 30 Mexican landscapers would have had those trails cleaned up weeks ago and looking better than ever. I can't believe this off trail access BS is back. It's a separate [retarded] issue that should have died years ago.

While the off trail and safety issue is BS, I can say with some certainty that you have clearly not been on the trails and do not understand the limits of power and money.
The Bear Canyon trail alone can not be solved with human labor. And I have no idea how you'd get a truck up there. There are thousands of cubic meters of material washed out. Humans can navigate it, yes, but they can not "fix" it without road building equipment.
Spray to the opposite effect reveals an ignorance that undermines what might otherwise be a valid argument and makes it easily dismissed as foolish.
The more valid argument is that humans are capable of walking on a path that a car can not navigate, and that the conditions of those "Trails" (which were drive-able by car) do not need to be restored to be opened.

FLAG
By Peter Beal
From Boulder Colorado
Oct 14, 2013
And here I am agreeing with Tony on Mountain Project! :)

Seriously, most of the real trail damage will require heavy equipment to remedy and increasingly appears to be limited to the lower regions of canyons such as Skunk where the section of the Mesa Trail that crosses it has apparently been completely blasted away. The smaller feeder trails higher up are for the most part untouched.

I think it would be great if OSMP opened up its land to visitors on an at-your-own-risk basis right now. Volunteers are working with OSMP and the FCC to provide info to help that process along.

FLAG
By Marc H
From Lafayette, CO
Oct 14, 2013
The Cathedral Spires in RMNP, left to right: Stiletto, Sharkstooth, Forbidden Tower, Petit Grepon, The Saber, The Foil, The Moon & The Jackknife.
Peter Beal wrote:
And here I am agreeing with Tony on Mountain Project! :)


Ha! I thought the same thing when I read it initially.

Peter wrote:
I think it would be great if OSMP opened up its land to visitors on an at-your-own-risk basis right now.


I think it should always be on an at-your-own-risk-basis. The only time I could understand them closing some of the damaged areas is if they are actively being worked on and thus recreators would be in the way.

FLAG
By Flatirons Climbing Council
Oct 15, 2013
Additional trail openings include: NCAR Trailhead, NCAR Trail, NCAR Water Tank Rd, NCAR Water Tank access point and Mallory Cave Trail.

FLAG
By Said
From Boulder, Co
Oct 15, 2013
Top of the 3rd pitch of Touchstone at Zion NP.
Flatirons Climbing Council wrote:
Additional trail openings include: NCAR Trailhead, NCAR Trail, NCAR Water Tank Rd, NCAR Water Tank access point and Mallory Cave Trail.


Does this mean Dinosaur Rock / Der Zerkle are open for climbing? They are basically on Trail...

FLAG
By Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Oct 15, 2013
...
"After it's all done, they can spend the next decade conducting studies to try and figure out what happened."

LOL!

FLAG
 
By Buff Johnson
Oct 15, 2013
smiley face
"One day the clouds came in, then rain, then winds, then floods, and carved out these beautiful vertical rocks:

Foggy day on Cynical Pinnacle.
Foggy day on Cynical Pinnacle.



Oh no wait...these are not the rocks you are looking for.."


good thing the 2nd is closed off, 'cause that's just scary

FLAG
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Oct 15, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.
JLP wrote:
Numerous instances of one guy on a Bobcat and a few gallons of diesel have already fixed countless trails and 4x4 roads all over Boulder County that, IMO, looked at least as bad as any photos I've seen of the worst of the Flatirons. I'm not talking about 30 guys coming to lay sod or rocks, I implied a real crew with a few Bobcats, a backhoe, maybe a front end loader or two. You guys and OSMP can be their water boys. The real problem is that this whole thing is being managed by a bunch of people who otherwise spend their days pushing paper, conducting studies and being otherwise worthless while carrying on in a way that would render them [and many have been...] marginalized and laid-off from the private sector. This is what they will continue to do to no end because it's all they know. They should be shoved aside while the guys who just fixed BoCan step in. After it's all done, they can spend the next decade conducting studies to try and figure out what happened.


Well, you are still wrong. But thanks for playing.
Has it occurred to you that 10,000 m^3 of road base weighs more than a bobcat can push or carry in 10k loads?
Of that a 4' deep rut is deeper than it can cross?

Has it occurred to you that the worst pictures you have seen are not from the closed areas?

I'm all for opening the place up "at your on risk" but your uninformed and un-examined (and incorrect) argument that it would be easily fixed gets our side of the debate team nowhere. "I've seen some pictures" as an argument is just awarding all points to the other side from the very start.

This is not the sort of thing to troll over. An adversary uses your weakness (in our case, people like you, arguing like this) against you in the court of popular opinion... to make you seem foolish and negate your point, which is to open the flatirons. I'm all in favor of that, but the BS doesn't help.

Your argument with the OSMP:
JLP: "You can fix that an open it right now"
OSMP: "Idiot. (slams door)"

A real argument with the OSMP:
"Colorado has strong recreational user statutes, and there is already case law that states that dangers that are natural and obvious are not cause for action in courts. Those trails do not need to be passable by car for us to use them, we are walking, after all. If you feel like you need to treat us like 3 year olds, and wait the year or more it is going to take to even get a contractor talking about trails instead of federal and state highways, since every bit of old building equipment within 5 states is already spoken for... do so while bearing in mind that it is an election year. Also bear in mind that the primary purpose of the OS taxes, as stated in the referendums in which they were passed, is for recreation. Decreasing recreational opportunities there would put the city in a legally precarious place in the long run."

FLAG
By Brad White
Oct 15, 2013
"One day the clouds came in, then rain, then winds, then floods, and carved out these beautiful vertical rocks:"

Yes, that is true. But not in three or so days.

And if anyone is interested, the 2nd does not appear to be closed over on the right side, and is not scary. It's the same as it always has been, or so I hear.

FLAG
By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
Oct 15, 2013
At the BRC
Said wrote:
Does this mean Dinosaur Rock / Der Zerkle are open for climbing? They are basically on Trail...


FCC or Tony B, do you know the answer to this question?

FLAG
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Oct 15, 2013
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.
Mark E Dixon wrote:
FCC or Tony B, do you know the answer to this question?

I am not on the FCC, but I can tell you that a rep from the FCC visited OSMP with a folder of data today and pointed out some of the absurdity of having open trails that more or less touch crags that are closed...
And he was given the expectation that good news was coming.
I'll ask that person to post here, but he does not frequent the site much.

FLAG
By Peter Beal
From Boulder Colorado
Oct 16, 2013
Thanks Tony. I too am optimistic that OSMP, when presented with the data that climbers are gathering, will open up climbing on a widespread basis, along with a lot of the trails, such as those on Green Mountain, that have been closed off to hikers and runners.

FLAG
By Animal Chin
Oct 16, 2013
"The real problem is that this whole thing is being managed by a bunch of people who otherwise spend their days pushing paper, conducting studies and being otherwise worthless"

THIS ˆˆˆ

No reason, with the exception of a few roped off areas, that ALL trails and climbing access should be open. The stooges at OSMP need to finish their "studies" "evaluations" and "paperwork" before anyone can hike or climb again...Lame.

It is an election year, but are there enough open minded candidates in Boulder? I think they are all obsessed with governmental excess, restriction, and control. I'm an architect, trust me I deal with it every day.

That is why I oppose the power situation. I'm not opposed to a Municipal power operation - seems to work well in Longmont and Fort Collins...BUT they don't have the Boulder government running things! Get ready to have your power totally micromanaged and anyone using power above some minimal amount will be paying huge rates...all so Boulder can bear the entire brunt of meeting the Kyoto protocol and satisfy a few rich egos.

sorry thread drift...hard not to because I can't go climbing anywhere that isn't closed or crowded right now!

FLAG
By Flatirons Climbing Council
Oct 18, 2013
The climber-access assessment work has begun to pay-off as OSMP has announced these re-openings of climbing terrain, effective immediately:

- Shadow Canyon Trail north to parts just north of Fern Canyon Trail. North of Fern Canyon The Goose, East Ridge, Nebel Horn and Seal Rock are open. Bear Canyon is closed.

- Dinosaur Mtn with formations habitually accessed from the Mallory Cave Trail are now open. This includes Dinosaur Rock, Der Zerkle, Red Devil, Finger, Hand Box, etc. Skunk Canyon and climbs habitually accessed from Skunk are closed.

OSMP will have a list and maps of open climbing terrain posted on their site. Here’s a list of open trails.
Here’s an overview map showing trail status.

Please allow the OSMP graphics and mapping department time to update.

Please note that Shadow Canyon cannot be accessed from the south. The dusk-to-dawn restriction remains in effect as do off-trail restrictions for areas outside of those mentioned above.

Aside from re-opening climbing terrain, many trails need repairs. Please visit OSMP’s site to learn of upcoming trail projects and pitch-in.

Thanks to the group of climber-volunteers and Rocky Mtn Rescue folks who tromped around taking notes and pictures. The data was/is critical to the re-opening process. We'll hope to have more good news next week.

FLAG
 
By Steve Williams
From Denver, CO
Oct 18, 2013
There sure are a bunch of whiners out there. . .

Why not just visit a different area. I've been to a number
of great places since the flooding--and have run into few people
if any.

Quit yer bitchen!

FLAG


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