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The Devils Lake top rope cluster Fu&k thread...
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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 3, 2013
hi

Taken Saturday on top of the East bluff. Yes, I did have a very nice conversation of the single piece of webbing to the "Master point" guy belaying his grandson on it...scary shit...



from the bottom up; A static line, a single locking biner, two reversed and apposed none locking biners, a single strand of webbing tied somehow to two different pieces just wrapped around a very large block (but plenty solid for one anchor piece)...wow.
from the bottom up; A static line, a single locking biner, two reversed and apposed none locking biners, a single strand of webbing tied somehow to two different pieces just wrapped around a very large block (but plenty solid for one anchor piece)...wow.




???
???


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By jon jugenheimer
From Madison
Jun 3, 2013
hi

Also heard a wonderful story from Saturday of a guy leading a route, setting a #4 nut on top for the anchor and bring up all of his friends on it. Where do people learn these techniques?!?!


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By chosspector
From San Juans, CO
Jun 3, 2013

This thread should be re-titled: "Rock Climbing in the Midwest".


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By Ryan N
From San Louis Obispo
Jun 3, 2013
RJN

If you can't tie knots, tie lots...


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By NorCalNomad
From San Francisco
Jun 3, 2013

Ryan N wrote:
If you can't tie knots, tie lots...


lol that's a great quote


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By jhn payne
Jun 3, 2013
"Ragin Cajun" 5.12c Jackson Falls, So Il.

chosspector wrote:
This thread should be re-titled: "Rock Climbing in the Midwest".


Someone posts a couple pictures of jacked anchors and suddenly everyone in the Midwest is incompetent at anchor building? Been building anchors for thirty years here in the Midwest, Colorado and elsewhere, anchor building is my art, I'm insulted.


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Jun 3, 2013
modern man

you should see the twigs people tie off for toproping in CT, less extreme though, everyone has a 50m static wrapped in webbing and they usually tie off at least 3 struggling twigs.


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By Jeremy1701
Jun 3, 2013
Devils Lake

This seems fitting

jive-assanchors.com/


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By andreis
Jun 3, 2013

I'm wondering if there ever was a proposed initiative to install permanent top-rope anchors at the top of the cliffs? This will make the climbing safer and faster for everyone, in addition to saving the trees and other vegetation on top. I'm not sure what would be the best way to do it, but i'm thinking maybe dig-in/cement some kind of steel posts to avoid drilling the rock.


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By BSheriden
Jun 3, 2013

chosspector wrote:
This thread should be re-titled: "Rock Climbing in the Midwest".


Check out the "jive ass anchors" link above and see how many are from colorado... Scary!


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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Jun 3, 2013
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.

Andreis, the brief answer is "no."

Aside from the vast numbers of non-climbers who would object, most climbers here would also object. After 85 years of climbing history here, we've only got permanent anchors on top of three rocks: Cleo's Needle, Leaning Tower, and Devils Doorway. And none of those is a fast and convenient TR anchor. (There have been others, but they've all disappeared, e.g. Brinton's, Teetering Tower.)

Most of us think people should just take the time to learn to use clean gear, and leave these rocks the way they have always been.


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By andreis
Jun 3, 2013

Doug Hemken wrote:
Andreis, the brief answer is "no." Aside from the vast numbers of non-climbers who would object, most climbers here would also object. After 85 years of climbing history here, we've only got permanent anchors on top of three rocks: Cleo's Needle, Leaning Tower, and Devils Doorway. And none of those is a fast and convenient TR anchor. (There have been others, but they've all disappeared, e.g. Brinton's, Teetering Tower.) Most of us think people should just take the time to learn to use clean gear, and leave these rocks the way they have always been.


Doug,

I think a lot of things changed in 85 years of climbing, only because "that how its used to be done" doesnt mean thats how it should continue to be. You cant deny that climbing at the lake is much more popular than it was even 10 years ago. If installing top anchors is done safe and well, it will only be an improvement in two major categories: environment & safety. Either all the trees will be gone or somebody will get seriously injured. And at that point, non-climbers public opinion wont care about the 'old-school ethics' of few hardcore DL climbers. There is no need to make climbing an elitist recreation by denying safe top-rope anchors to be installed.


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By Doug Hemken
Administrator
Jun 3, 2013
On Everleigh Club Crack.  Photo by Burt Lindquist.

First time I've heard top-roping called "elitist!"

You've completely avoided my point: most of us would object that steel posts and/or eye bolts would detract from the environment.


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By andreis
Jun 3, 2013

Doug Hemken wrote:
First time I've heard top-roping called "elitist!" You've completely avoided my point: most of us would object that steel posts and/or eye bolts would detract from the environment.


Doug,

I didnt call top-roping "elitist", i said that the 'old-school climbers' are trying to keep it that way.

I'm not sure who is the "most of us", since I'm a climber and my friends are climbers and all of us always talk about how nice it would be to have the anchors. Once again, top-anchors will make the climbing safer and faster for everyone.

I said "anchors which are done well and safe" which implied that they wont be obstructive. I;d rather have a disguised metal bolt installed than dead trees to detract me from the environment.


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By jhn payne
Jun 3, 2013
"Ragin Cajun" 5.12c Jackson Falls, So Il.

85 years ago there were how many climbers at Devils Lake? I respect your ethic, however I can relate this, here in SoIl we have pitched the value of permanent anchors as best choice to prevent cliff top damage, and most of the anchors at Jackson Falls are slightly below the actual top of the bluff, after many years I can say it has worked, just walk along the top trail at Jackson Falls and note that in spite of the years of climbing the cliff line is basically unfazed. I wouldn't let my ethic prevent me from adopting a better way, in lieu of the number of climbers compared to 85 years ago.


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By pfwein
Jun 3, 2013

Doug Hemken wrote:
Andreis, the brief answer is "no." Aside from the vast numbers of non-climbers who would object . . .


Doubt any non-climbers would object (why would they?), unless they've somehow been instructed to by climbers and are parroting their objections.
Placement of bolts in rocks is basically something that only climbers object to. That's been my experience, which includes at least occasionally talking to non-climbers and taking the time to answer their questions about climbing, rather than mocking them (which seems to be the preferred climber response).

Here's a question: if you think non-climbers would object to discretely placed and painted bolts, what do you think the non-climbers think about 50' of brightly colored ropes and slings used to set up each TR anchor? Yeah those ropes and slings are removed when the climbers are finished, but so what?


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By Greg D
From Here
Jun 3, 2013
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

andreis wrote:
Doug, I think a lot of things changed in 85 years of climbing, only because "that how its used to be done" doesnt mean thats how it should continue to be. You cant deny that climbing at the lake is much more popular than it was even 10 years ago. If installing top anchors is done safe and well, it will only be an improvement in two major categories: environment & safety. Either all the trees will be gone or somebody will get seriously injured. And at that point, non-climbers public opinion wont care about the 'old-school ethics' of few hardcore DL climbers. There is no need to make climbing an elitist recreation by denying safe top-rope anchors to be installed.


So many things wrong with this comment I don't know where to start.

First off, the notion of permanent anchors making things safe. NOT! I have heard of very, very few injuries due to top rope anchor failures. But, I have heard of many, many injuries due to improper use and communication failures on fixed anchors. Remember, fixed anchors invite those with less experience and training to get on routes that would otherwise require effort, more gear, more training and more personal responsibility.

"make climbing an eletist recreation by denying safe top-rope anchors" ?

"Eletist" and "denying" stand out here. As if everyone on the planet has a god given right to climb and equal access should be provided. Just because the popularity is growing, should we lower the standards that have existed for decades? By standards I'm referring to knowledge, training, experience, proper use of gear etc. Should we instead provide access to just about anybody even the guy that just left REI after buying his first rope and some quick draws.

Is anything sacred anymore?


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By Woodchuck ATC
Jun 3, 2013
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

Too many non trained, inexperienced gym climbers who come out here thinking they rule the world cuz' they toproped all the 5.10's at the gym. And they own 5 biners and a 30 ft. strand of webbing so,,, go for it! I truly miss the days of Jim Ebert and his bomber redundant anchor systems used with Iowa Mountaineers decades ago.


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By BSheriden
Jun 3, 2013

Woodchuck ATC wrote:
Too many non trained, inexperienced gym climbers who come out here thinking they rule the world cuz' they toproped all the 5.10's at the gym. And they own 5 biners and a 30 ft. strand of webbing so,,, go for it! I truly miss the days of Jim Ebert and his bomber redundant anchor systems used with Iowa Mountaineers decades ago.


Nothing like old geezers wishing for things to be how they used to be. News flash its not 1950 anymore, time to adapt and grow up!


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By andreis
Jun 3, 2013

Greg D wrote:
As if everyone on the planet has a god given right to climb and equal access should be provided. Just because the popularity is growing, should we lower the standards that have existed for decades? By standards I'm referring to knowledge, training, experience, proper use of gear etc. Should we instead provide access to just about anybody even the guy that just left REI after buying his first rope and some quick draws. Is anything sacred anymore?


Yes, everyone who wants to climb has a right to try and equal access should be provided to everyone. Greg, I believe climbing does not require a licence.

Safety standards must and still exist, same goes for the training, use of the proper gear and experience. You said it yourself, the issue of the potential injuries is the miscommunication. And anchors do fail, whenever its a bolt or a hex.

The more popular the sport, the money are being poured into it. Gear gets better and safer, more durable and reliable. New climbers fuel the industry with their credit cards which results in our favorite outdoor companies and brands making larger profits which they in return, invest back into environment, help the access issues, outdoor grants and etc. So maybe instead of saying "in the good ol' day we didnt have this and that" its time to move on and make the sport more attractive to the wider audience because with climbing comes the appreciation of the great outdoors.


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By Burt Lindquist
Administrator
From Madison, WI
Jun 3, 2013
Trying to stay warm up on Brownstone Wall Red Rocks, NV

Within Wisconsin State Parks it isn't climbers who primarily take a no bolts stance... it is the park service and the policies enfored by the park service. Yes- there is a no bolt ethic at Devil's Lake adhered reverently by alot of climbers as well - old school all the way to newbies. It's one of the things that keeps DLSTP climbing unique. That and the cool absolutely bullet hard pink quartzite. Setting up a proper and safe TR anchor is not difficult by any means and setting up one with out utilizing any tree trunks is also very possible. You get a good work out carrying the gear needed for all that all the way up to the bluff top. I do wish sometimes that there were fixed anchors for rappel purposes once in a awhile (especially during marathon lead days)but quickly put the thought aside thinking it's just great to have such a cool place to climb so close and convenient to home. I personally like that fact that there are not fixed anchors within the park. I don't ever pretend to be the last word on the subject though and there are of course a lot of different ways to look at this particular subject. I know one thing for sure... drilling into DL quartzite would take ALOT of drill bits. I think everyone would agree on that!


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By Ron L Long
From Out yonder in Wisco.
Jun 3, 2013
City life

All of the arguing whether it is better to have fixed anchors versus built anchors is pointless when it comes to Devil's Lake. The states answer is 'HELL NO' to any discussion of fixed anchors. Unless something has drastically changed in the last few years, this goes for replacing old as well as for installing new.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Jun 3, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

andreis wrote:
Yes, everyone who wants to climb has a right to try and equal access should be provided to everyone.


It is.

andreis wrote:
Safety standards must and still exist, same goes for the training, use of the proper gear and experience.


Exactly. Learn to build an anchor properly.


andreis wrote:
And anchors do fail, whenever its a bolt or a hex.


Uuuhhh... everything you say after this point is completely void of any validity.


andreis wrote:
New climbers fuel the industry with their credit cards which results in our favorite outdoor companies and brands making larger profits which they in return, invest back into environment, help the access issues, outdoor grants and etc.


I think you may be confusing climbing gear manufacturers with access and coalition organizations.

andreis wrote:
So maybe instead of saying "in the good ol' day we didnt have this and that" its time to move on and make the sport more attractive to the wider audience because with climbing comes the appreciation of the great outdoors.


Yeah, it sure does. That's why there is never any trash or bullshit in any areas frequented predominantly by climbers. I'm not entirely sure we're living on the same planet. What color is the sky on yours?


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By andreis
Jun 3, 2013

Jake,

gear manufactures as well as retailers make your climbing access possible on so many levels, you might want to educate yourself:

www.accessfund.org/site/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.7696441/k.DEC6/Spons>>>
www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/about-us/sustainability/>>>
www.americanalpineclub.org/p/partners-program

and so on. So before you make yourself sound like a "know-it-all-guru", check your facts.


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By Greg D
From Here
Jun 3, 2013
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

andreis wrote:
Yes, everyone who wants to climb has a right to try and equal access should be provided to everyone.


Please tell me what law, statue, regulation or document grants a "right" to climb?

Then, defend your statement about equal access. Does this mean every human should have equal access to every climb? Should a 5.8 climber have "access" to the anchors on top of a 5.12 if no walk up is available, for example.

Personally, I only have access to routes within my ability or where I can setup a top rope.


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By andreis
Jun 3, 2013

Greg D wrote:
Please tell me what law, statue, regulation or document grants a "right" to climb? Then, defend your statement about equal access. Does this mean every human should have equal access to every climb? Should a 5.8 climber have "access" to the anchors on top of a 5.12 if no walk up is available, for example. Personally, I only have access to routes within my ability or where I can setup a top rope.


Greg, I think you need to read what you wrote earlier:
"As if everyone on the planet has a god given right to climb and equal access should be provided."

To that, I answered - yes, everyone has a right to climb and have an equal access to climbs (obviously to their ability).


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