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Logan Eckhardt
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Jun 5, 2008
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Albuquerque
· Joined Aug 2007
· Points: 35
I've been climbing long enough to see formerly lush, vegetated areas become wastelands of dirt, used tape, footprints, dog holes, pee-stains, chalk marks, and all the rest. Granted, at some locations climbing has enhanced a former wasteland and turned it into a locale of awe and wonder, at least for those of us enjoying the routes. I am certain we all understand the impact we have on our environment when we hang out at the base of a rock, remove parts of plants to gain better access to a climb, walk back and forth from climb to climb, pee and poop in nearby areas, and bring our dogs to the crags. Being an avid climber, I have impacted my share of the climbing environment. For the most part, however, the majority of climbing that I have done has been at areas that are already "well-trampled" so to speak, and many before me have already modified landscapes to the point that they don't change much year after year. And, granted, maintenance efforts and clean-up days help to keep things from escalating out of control. Here's the issue...I recently had the honor to climb a couple new routes on some stone that hasn't seen many rubber soles. On my way out, I was dismayed to see that a fresh fire pit had been abandoned by a party that decided to camp and climb there the night before. Apparently a developer went back this past week and completely dismantled the fire pit, and tried his best to remove all trace of these climbers' camping remnants. So, if by chance in 10 years, when yet another lush, peaceful, and relatively untouched area is nothing more than another trampled down poop-filled wasteland, is it the first to "leave their trace" who should be held accountable? Is it the developers who drilled the first holes? The campers who were too lazy or complacent to remove their trace? The climbers who show up to check it out? The dog owners who bring their pooches? I don't really know. It's that difficult conundrum! I'm the first to want to try new climbs in new, peaceful, and crowd-free areas. But this one has me conflicted. Thoughts?
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YDPL8S
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Jun 5, 2008
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Santa Monica, Ca.
· Joined Aug 2003
· Points: 540
You eloquently expressed my thoughts exactly. You even owned up to your own personal desecration at times. Chalk and poop and firepits do not add to the nature experience. But then, that is not what a lot of people are seeking. Population is ultimately the main problem. I still have to laugh when someone comments on a route as "still being dirty", sometimes even said about alpine routes (remember how fun it was to get dirty when you were a kid?). This is outside....nature....deal with it or go to the gym .......flame on!
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Eric D
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Jun 5, 2008
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Gnarnia
· Joined Nov 2006
· Points: 235
While I agree that climbing impact should be minimized, I really don't think there's any reason to feel too guilty about it. I would spend my time thinking of the impact of mining, logging, and driving instead. A couple years ago my friend ended up in a Time Magazine article about the negative environmental impact of climbing. What a joke that article was. There are thousands of things worse for our planet than climbing. Though, we should of course continue to leave as little of a trace as possible.
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Fat Dad
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Jun 5, 2008
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Los Angeles, CA
· Joined Nov 2007
· Points: 60
Eric D wrote:While I agree that climbing impact should be minimized, I really don't think there's any reason to feel too guilty about it. I would spend my time thinking of the impact of mining, logging, and driving instead. A couple years ago my friend ended up in a Time Magazine article about the negative environmental impact of climbing. What a joke that article was. There are thousands of things worse for our planet than climbing. Though, we should of course continue to leave as little of a trace as possible. What a pathetic cop out dude. We're ultimately responsible for our own behavior. Pointing to others' bad behavior does not excuse your own.
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Sam Lightner, Jr.
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Jun 5, 2008
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Lander, WY
· Joined Apr 2006
· Points: 2,732
I guess I'm a copout like Eric D. The environmental movement has been such a successful religion that it has made us feel guilty simply for existing. I doubt that was Muirs intent. We need to recognize impacts, but there is no way not to have one.
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Logan Eckhardt
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Jun 5, 2008
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Albuquerque
· Joined Aug 2007
· Points: 35
Scott M. Mossman wrote:I still have to laugh when someone comments on a route as "still being dirty", Remarkably, that was the first thing I heard from the only other folks climbing that day, how dirty everything was--the lichen, the sand, and the basic unclimbed nature! I'm not talking about those kinds of environmentalists who want to restrict each and every type of activity in the wilds. I guess I was just pondering the fact that a remarkable and beautiful, quiet and relatively pristine area (I say relatively as cattle are allowed to graze and there are a small number of hikers and fisherpeople who've been using this area for decades), is going to see new traffic, more people, new routes, and eventual degradation due to the climbers presence. I've already seen it happen at another similar area. Ahhh...well, maybe my musing is for naught, as surely I'll be back up there another day.
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Cowboy
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Jun 5, 2008
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Osan AB, Korea
· Joined Apr 2008
· Points: 5
You're not the only one to get ticked off when others leave areas worse than they found them...I engage in several outdoor pursuits, and find other people's crap left behind in every "sport". I'm a long ways from being a tree hugger, but I do my part to leave things the way I found them or better (when cleaning up behind other asshats is involved). I've never "landscaped" a route, never come a crossed a reason to, if the route is there, why would foliage need to be removed??? Just so some weak ass can use a hold that a sapling was growing in? On the other hand, I use chalk, I don't smear it across the rock face, or dump it on the ground at the begining of a route...but I don't see chalk as a detriment to climbing.
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Eastvillage
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Jun 6, 2008
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New York, NY
· Joined Mar 2006
· Points: 80
How pathetic has this community become, that most of the posters here need to qualify their environmental position with statements like Im no tree hugger etc.? So, one of your favorite pastimes in life involves being intimately involved in nature and yet you are unwilling to fight aggressively to protect it? The environmental damage and associated garbage the OP wrote of is ONLY due to immature, entitled climbers who feel no need to stand up amongst themselves and protect the cliff environments they choose to play in. Stand up now or sit back and watch as everything gets destroyed
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Mikeco
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Jun 6, 2008
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Highlands Ranch CO
· Joined Apr 2008
· Points: 0
The user is responsible for picking up after themselves and their animals. If others refuse, then do it for them if you are really concerned about keeping an area as nice as possible.
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snowdenroad
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Jun 6, 2008
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Jun 2007
· Points: 50
I put up the 70th route at the 'secret crag' yesterday, bringing the total bolt count to nearly 800. This is the 4th year myself and a few others have been bolting out there. So far about 40 folks have visited. Only about 2/3 have ever returned, I think b/c of loose and dirty rock. Most folks who visit don't want to tell anyone - to help keep the area untrampled, and for themselves. Now we have, IMO, a great cliff, with a lot of work (and $$) put into it, and are starting to think it would be nice to share with others. But that of course leads to more and more folks showing up, and the place eventually getting trampled. Probably never crowded b/c its a bit out of town, and mostly 10+ and up. So b/c we do let more and more folks know, I guess I prefer the area, and my efforts, to get used, and eventually trampled,rather than not....
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Cowboy
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Jun 6, 2008
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Osan AB, Korea
· Joined Apr 2008
· Points: 5
Eastvillage wrote:How pathetic has this community become, that most of the posters here need to qualify their environmental position with statements like Im no tree hugger etc.? Take offense to the "tree hugger" comment, much? Since the above got my attention, I'm gonna apologize in advance for the comments below, so when they rub someone the wrong way, it's already taken care of. I associate the use of "tree hugger" with environmentalists that go over the top with their efforts to protect the environment; to the point it gets our privileges taken away. OR the environmental extremists that destroy more than they are supposedly trying to protect...case in point, a group called "ELF" that goes around burning Hummer dealerships to the ground, putting more toxins in the atmosphere and into the water table than those wastes of vehicles would do on their own in a lifetime of use. I don't enjoy cleaning up behind others, it shouldn't be necessary, they should clean up behind themselves, unfortunately, I never "catch" them leaving the mess behind...so the rest of us end up doing it. Hopefully, this gets my perspective across, if not, maybe "labels" bother you...I really don't know, and at this point I really don't care.
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Jason Isherwood
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Jun 6, 2008
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Golden
· Joined Feb 2008
· Points: 20
Cowboy wrote:I associate the use of "tree hugger" with environmentalists that go over the top with their efforts to protect the environment; to the point it gets our privileges taken away. OR the environmental extremists that destroy more than they are supposedly trying to protect...case in point, a group called "ELF" that goes around burning Hummer dealerships to the ground, putting more toxins in the atmosphere and into the water table than those wastes of vehicles would do on their own in a lifetime of use. I don't enjoy cleaning up behind others, it shouldn't be necessary, they should clean up behind themselves, unfortunately, I never "catch" them leaving the mess behind...so the rest of us end up doing it. Hopefully, this gets my perspective across, if not, maybe "labels" bother you...I really don't know, and at this point I really don't care. Well said. I have a forestry degree and have never liked that term.
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Eastvillage
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Jun 6, 2008
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New York, NY
· Joined Mar 2006
· Points: 80
Cowboy, I wasn't going after your use of Tree Hugger, just the general lack of acceptance among many climbers of being personally responsible for their own environment damage in many climbing areas.
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Cowboy
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Jun 6, 2008
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Osan AB, Korea
· Joined Apr 2008
· Points: 5
Jason Isherwood wrote: Well said. I have a forestry degree and have never liked that term. Eastvillage wrote:Cowboy, I wasn't going after your use of Tree Hugger, just the general lack of acceptance among many climbers of being personally responsible for their own environment damage in many climbing areas. Fair enough (on both accounts), we're all on the same page. Maybe I took it just a tad personal "Eastvillage", since I was the only one that mentioned "tree hugger" (in my first post of this thread). I completely agree, we need to take care of the resources that we enjoy...I will continue to clean up after morons that leave trash behind...I still won't like it, but it's a "sport preservation" thing...along with a "safety thing" since many of the crags here have broken glass scattered around.
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Charlie S
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Jun 8, 2008
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NV
· Joined Aug 2007
· Points: 2,391
I had some time to think about this over the weekend. I love the outdoors, but I also believe in human progress. The land is here for us to use (not ABuse). Basically, no matter what you do, or where you go, you're going to leave some "trace." Back to the original post, I'm not completely sure what these campers did. I see no problem with a fire pit (that's a lot better than setting the whole place on fire.) And poop happens, even animals do it. I'm not sure where ours becomes more repulsive than the other animal's of the forrest. However, if they left trash out, did not bury human waste, and made an overall unpleasant experience for other people who may be using the area in the future, THAT is a problem. A few weekends ago I went camping at a fairly well traveled mountain. We camped, used fire pits, and answered the call of nature. But it was all done in a way that would not be repulsive to future campers/hikers. Might I add though, on the way down, a group of city kids (who we heard in the distance) had etched "TROOP" then some number then "5/26/08" in the rock slab part of the trail. You want to talk about utter disregard... The hike up the mountain was so beautiful on the way in a few days prior, it was ashame to see this selfish and rude act on the way down. So back to the question of who's responsible? The visitor who's careless, rude, or apathetic.
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Mike C
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Jun 9, 2008
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Sweden
· Joined Mar 2008
· Points: 30
Anywhere in the world you will find garbage along nature trails, more in some countries than others. This garbage is usually put there by people who like nature, or else they would not be there in the first place. I think it's safe to say that these people would much rather hike along a nice nature trail than hike in a garbage dump, yet they don't mind helping the nature trail they are on turn into a garbage dump. Why? It's in our nature to destroy. Thats what we do, that's what we are here for... How many of us do not take our cars to our climbing crags? We know that our car pollutes, but we take it anyway... The same can be said for flying. Many of us don't think twice about flying to our destinations, although we know that the air travel industry is a major source of pollution. We sacrifice a small portion of the envouronment every time, because if we didn't, we wouldn't be able to do the things we enjoy. Of course a lot of us take out our own crap, but we destroy in so many other ways anyway... Who is responsable? It doesn't matter, it's human nature...
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richard berk
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Jun 9, 2008
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Denver, CO
· Joined Jan 2002
· Points: 45
Proud tree hugger here (and since when have some fringe fks like ELF been given the privilege of defining what it means to be a tree hugger?). It's great that folks are self aware of their impact on nature when out climbing but let's not overstate it. Fire rings and a bit of trash are hardly a huge deal. I don't have a problem dismantling fire rings and picking up a bag full of trash here and there when others forget. I do find it a little confusing though why people willing to pound in 800 bolts are worried about a little trail erosion (maybe it helps justify keeping your secret crag secret). I'd much rather see the overuse issues from people getting out there and enjoying the wilderness rather than losing it to development or mineral interests. Sure, carpooling or riding your bike to the crag is really good thing, but we need people out there playing and having fun in the wilderness (even if it means leaving behind some trash and bolts) so that one, we have a continual stream of people willing to protect it and two, we don't forget where we came from and what it means to be us. From one of my favorite tree huggers Mr. Abbey: "We need wilderness because we are wild animals. Every man needs a place where he can go to go crazy in peace. Every Boy Scout deserves a forest to get lost, miserable, and starving in. Even the maddest murderer of the sweetest wife should get a chance for a run to the sanctuary of the hills. If only for the sport of it. For the terror, freedom, and delirium. Because we need brutality and raw adventure, because men and women first learned to love in, under, and all around trees, because we need for every pair of feet and legs about ten leagues of naked nature, crags to leap from, mountains to measure by, deserts to finally die in when the heart fails."
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Eastvillage
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Jun 9, 2008
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New York, NY
· Joined Mar 2006
· Points: 80
We can all follow Ed Abbey's advice and get out there.
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Mikeco
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Jun 9, 2008
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Highlands Ranch CO
· Joined Apr 2008
· Points: 0
richard berk wrote: I'd much rather see the overuse issues from people getting out there and enjoying the wilderness rather than losing it to development or mineral interests. Sure, carpooling or riding your bike to the crag is really good thing, but we need people out there playing and having fun in the wilderness (even if it means leaving behind some trash and bolts) so that one, we have a continual stream of people willing to protect it and two, we don't forget where we came from and what it means to be us. Great post. I really agree with this part.
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Sam Gileadi
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Jun 9, 2008
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Surf City
· Joined Aug 2006
· Points: 30
Too many people with no respect for the wilderness, that's the bottom line. The wild outdoors doesn't drive an expensive car, it doesn't often send bears out to maul people that trash it, it is easily exploited and beaten down, in other words, it doesn't really do much to create respect for itself in the context of our culture. We tend to respect everything from the people we know to the inanimate that we encounter for the wrong reasons, so the effect of that is that people have no respect when it comes to the outdoors. I would argue too that the overbearing sort of environmentalist that everyone despises has little true respect for the environment and is instead using it for blind personal crusades. As climbers we can exploit the rock and its surroundings or we can respect it. Too many people do the first. It's easy to blame city folk for all the problems we see, but if you've ever spent time in a small town you know that small town people are not all that different.
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Logan Eckhardt
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Jun 10, 2008
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Albuquerque
· Joined Aug 2007
· Points: 35
S. Gileadi, I agree with your point of view. It's a sticky challenge for me, as I've also see nature successfully trash itself (wildfire, tornadoes, etc.) where it's not just the houses and roads and things that get destroyed, but the trees, the terrain due to erosion, and flooding. I always respect the mantra "this too will change" but I do find that my own perspective has changed as I've aged a little, and that it is hard to see a formerly untrampled area become the "hot new place." I guess in the end, it will happen regardless, and all I can do is what I can do--pack out my own crap, pack out the crap of others (crap excluded unless full hazmat gear is worn!), dismantle those brand new fire pits, and help to clip a decent trail to each route so that others don't just destroy all the vegetation in an effort to climb.
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