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The AAC and Access Fund. Kiss or Kill?
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Sep 23, 2012
RockinGal wrote:
I ran the Access Fund for five years, worked there for eight. Hereís my take on it. Send a few bucks to one or more of the organizations. Doesnít really matter which one. Volunteer some time and/or just be real at the crag: engage land managers and other climbers in a positive manner. A national organization is not going to take on local issues. Thatís your job. They can help you. Donít expect any climbersí group to be an effective lobbyist. Join the NRA if thatís your goal. Happy climbing!


But I'm for climbing and against guns so that won't work. I would like to see a climbers group become an effective lobbyist. Check out the OP, can you answer any of those questions?
Tradoholic
Joined Apr 17, 2004
12,440 points
Sep 28, 2012
Yes, I can answer all of those questions, but I'd rather go climbing. RockinGal
From Boulder CO
Joined Jan 16, 2008
4 points
Sep 28, 2012
RockinGal wrote:
Yes, I can answer all of those questions, but I'd rather go climbing.


Well then, what good are you?
Tradoholic
Joined Apr 17, 2004
12,440 points
Sep 28, 2012
Me again!
That about sums it up I would think. J Q
Joined Mar 11, 2012
48 points
Sep 30, 2012
On a hot summers day, you could go there and HUNDREDS of climbers would be enjoying the place

and that was part of the problem
Steve Powell
Joined Jul 10, 2002
1,010 points
Sep 30, 2012
You are the one that needs to answer these questions. I spent years doing it. What good are you? RockinGal
From Boulder CO
Joined Jan 16, 2008
4 points
Sep 30, 2012
#2
RockinGal wrote:
You are the one that needs to answer these questions. I spent years doing it. What good are you?



Why? As a fellow rep. of the A.F I don't understand why you would represent in this way. If you have valuable intel (as I would hope you would after working for the company for so long) you would only weight in if there was applicable and positive feedback. Otherwise you oh-so important climbing and "having fun" schedule should have kept you busy enough to refrain from spraying useless banter online.

I uderstand the burn out factor, as well as, the frustrations that can come from grassroot-supported inititatives. However, the goal of the A.F., as well as, the AAC has always and (I assume) will always include promoting support and awareness on the local levels. Threads like this have the ability to do that but when a self-proclaimed Representative of the agency in question say they are more interested in climbing than supporting, why would any local climber (or pre-exsisting member of said organization) do anything outside of the standard of which you are setting?

Simply put: love climbing? speak up, speak out, support open lands, but most importantly: tread lightly and carry a big stick!

Mr. Holmes
From Cascade West
Joined Dec 6, 2010
82 points
Oct 1, 2012
Mr. Holmes wrote:
Why? As a fellow rep. of the A.F I don't understand why you would represent in this way. If you have valuable intel (as I would hope you would after working for the company for so long) you would only weight in if there was applicable and positive feedback. Otherwise you oh-so important climbing and "having fun" schedule should have kept you busy enough to refrain from spraying useless banter online. I uderstand the burn out factor, as well as, the frustrations that can come from grassroot-supported inititatives. However, the goal of the A.F., as well as, the AAC has always and (I assume) will always include promoting support and awareness on the local levels. Threads like this have the ability to do that but when a self-proclaimed Representative of the agency in question say they are more interested in climbing than supporting, why would any local climber (or pre-exsisting member of said organization) do anything outside of the standard of which you are setting? Simply put: love climbing? speak up, speak out, support open lands, but most importantly: tread lightly and carry a big stick!


Exactly.
Tradoholic
Joined Apr 17, 2004
12,440 points
Oct 1, 2012
Big Boulder, just a bit downhill from Temple of Ka...
Powell....

So what exactly is wrong with hundreds climbing at a place?????


And if you like/ love solitude, PM me Ill draw you a map to 10 places that no one goes to......
Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Joined Mar 1, 2008
187 points
Nov 14, 2012
Williamson was a very popular, high quality area. AF AND friends of williamson haven't taken legal or other action to get it opened after SEVEN years of closure with NO evidence that climbers were harming wildlife.
The end of year date for USFS reconsideration of the closure is approaching.
What has AF done to reopen Williamson?
Malcom?!
Anyone?!
other
From San Diego, CA
Joined Apr 3, 2006
11 points
Nov 14, 2012
If the access fund position is "we don't work on local access issues and we aren't pro climbing lobbyists", why send them money? other
From San Diego, CA
Joined Apr 3, 2006
11 points
Nov 14, 2012
Climbing at Morro Anhangava in Southern Brasil.  (...
Malcolm Daly wrote:
There are not enough climbers and we don't spend enough money to buy any legislators. If, however, we join with other groups that recreate in the outdoors, we become the third largest private economic engine in the US valued at $646 Billion. If we (climbers, environmentalists, photographers, mountainbikers, horseback, hunters and fishermen, ATVs and motos, backpackers and all the businesses that support the recreation community) could ever get on the same side of the table and form a PAC, then we'd have more juice than all the business sectors except banking and insurance. Read that last sentence again. It's important. Our goal as recreationists is not to be feared. It's to be loved. Cheers, Malcolm


It's already begun to happen: Outdoor Alliance
GMBurns
Joined Jul 15, 2008
523 points
Nov 14, 2012
#2
other wrote:
If the access fund position is "we don't work on local access issues and we aren't pro climbing lobbyists", why send them money?



For the record this is not a stance that the Access Fund as an organization supports in any way.
Mr. Holmes
From Cascade West
Joined Dec 6, 2010
82 points
Nov 14, 2012
For the record, I am not, I repeat, I AM NOT a representative of the Access Fund or the AAC, for that matter. Fact is I worked for the AF from 1993-2001 and have been a member of the AAC since 1987. I was also the Managing Editor for Rock & Ice from 1987-1991.
During those years, I devoted an inordinate amount of time to climbing advocacy and access issues. My record is second to none. I have no need to prove it to a few people who post hate and castigate others on the internet. To you I say: spend time organizing climbers, meeting with land managers, working on clean up or fundraising events, donating your time or money to the cause. This is the work that gets things done, itís in the trenches. I know itís much easier to spew on the internet and tear down others when you havenít done anything positive to help the cause. Itís much easier to complain than actually do something.
Iíve done my work. Itís now up to you.
I remain a committed climber, but not committed to the climbing community due to discussions such as this.
Sincerely,
Sally Moser
RockinGal
From Boulder CO
Joined Jan 16, 2008
4 points
Nov 15, 2012
Many of the groups deserve money yet joining many groups gets frigging expensive.
AF theoretically promotes access nationally.
local regions access groups theoretically promotes local access.
AAC for nsurance and other features seem valuable.
ASCA is great for anyone who's ever used a bolt or fixed anchor.
AMGA or other pro organization necessary for guides.
Sierra club or other conservationist outfit so we have wilderness.
IMBA or Local MTB access group for MTBers.
Some kind of wilderness medical training or supplies or donation to SAR team.
total all in Youre looking at over $200+ per year!
other
From San Diego, CA
Joined Apr 3, 2006
11 points
Nov 15, 2012
Goat on Brothers
Has anyone on here (or know of someone who) used the global rescue insurance? (not intending to make a point, just curious) Kyle Pease
From Missoula, MT
Joined Apr 30, 2011
49 points
Nov 15, 2012
Got an email. AAC membership is 10% off today if you've been contemplating it.

HOLIDAY10 is the promo code.
alpinejason
From Eau Claire
Joined Apr 25, 2010
42 points
Nov 17, 2012
#2
RockinGal wrote: "This is the work that gets things done, itís in the trenches. I know itís much easier to spew on the internet and tear down others when you havenít done anything positive to help the cause. Itís much easier to complain than actually do something.
Iíve done my work. Itís now up to you."


...Well from the A.F. trenches for the past decade, I solute you. Some of us may be on an internet thread but it is only to stay up to date on the Access Issues which we happen to care to do something about. For some of us, we have shared your blood, sweat, and tears and have no need to spray...

I think many would agree that comments such as "what good are you?" would fall into the catagory of "hate" that you so boldy chastise.

...Enjoy retirement!
Mr. Holmes
From Cascade West
Joined Dec 6, 2010
82 points
Nov 17, 2012
Lincoln Lake
Standing up and saying you used to work for the AF and then giving snotty replies doesn't do the AF any favors even if you don't work there any more. Mike Morin
From On the Road
Joined Nov 4, 2007
1,277 points
Nov 18, 2012
This isn't the thread to protect your ego and if you're in a position of leadership or were, you need to be open to criticism, it comes with the job. Giving more money is good but doesn't address the original questions I asked. It's easy to say to everyone else "Well, YOU get up and do something!" but in reality not everyone has the chance or free time to do so and this thread is meant to be a free exchange of ideas that people in those positions of opportunity can use or not use, it's up to them. I think we would all like to see a bigger, better, and richer advocacy group for climbers, yes? Well then lets hear the ideas for doing just that.

Here are the original questions re-posted:

-Are you a member of one or both? If so, why?

-How can either of the groups do better?

-Would you be interested in a joint membership?

-What if the AAC library was Netflix style, how much would you pay for that?

-Who can name the president of either group?

-What are the goals of each group?

-Tell us a story, how has the AAC or AF effected your climbing?

-Could a climbers advocacy group ever be a powerful lobbyist?

-Let 'er rip, why are these groups a waste of money, time, and resources?

-Can these groups be feared like the NRA or ATV Assoc? Should they be feared? Should climbers sue for access?
Tradoholic
Joined Apr 17, 2004
12,440 points
Nov 18, 2012
other wrote:
Many of the groups deserve money yet joining many groups gets frigging expensive. AF theoretically promotes access nationally. local regions access groups theoretically promotes local access. AAC for nsurance and other features seem valuable. ASCA is great for anyone who's ever used a bolt or fixed anchor. AMGA or other pro organization necessary for guides. Sierra club or other conservationist outfit so we have wilderness. IMBA or Local MTB access group for MTBers. Some kind of wilderness medical training or supplies or donation to SAR team. total all in Youre looking at over $200+ per year!


$200/year is chump change compared to what other outdoor folks spend on their past times. $200/year so you can have continued access to your favorite crag, have safe bolts, have insurance, have wilderness, etc, etc is CHUMP CHANGE. I give more than that just to the AF alone every year and I dont make that much a year working as a sales guy for a climbing company. I also donate over a 100 hours a year, probably more than 200 hours a year on average, of my time. What do YOU do to protect your home crag?

climbers are such cheap, selfish bastards sometimes. So many of the locals here in las vegas wont lift a finger to help the AF or our local org on trail days because its nice out and they want to rock climb. They dont want to give up a single day to help. 1% of climbers are members of the AF. For being such a rad group of people most of the time, that most of my friends couldnt care less about these orgs drives me nuts.

now excuse me, i have to go muscle a bunch of boulders into my truck and drive them out to Day 2 of the Access Funds Future of Fixed Anchors Conference, which I'm helping to host and organize.
John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Joined Feb 1, 2004
2,377 points
Nov 18, 2012
#2
John Wilder- Thank you! You are a stud!!!

It is always frustrating creating an Adopt-a-Crag event, negotiating with land manager, sponsors, and local climbing community to come out only to have 90% of the people who show up at the trail head keep on walking to their current project with nary a head nod or thank you.

We, as climbers, can do better! The sport is designed organically to require mental fortitude, strength, flexibility (both physical and mental), as well as inherently social... All these attributes are what it takes for a user group to get noticed on capital hill, make differences at their local crags, and generally Kick Ass every where they go.

To spray about what YOU did once is fleeting, To contribute to a crag or organization is eternal.
Mr. Holmes
From Cascade West
Joined Dec 6, 2010
82 points
Nov 18, 2012
#2
outdoorindustry.org/pdf/OIA_Ou...

This is how big we are.
Mr. Holmes
From Cascade West
Joined Dec 6, 2010
82 points
Nov 18, 2012
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
John Wilder wrote:
now excuse me, i have to go muscle a bunch of boulders into my truck and drive them out to Day 2 of the Access Funds Future of Fixed Anchors Conference, which I'm helping to host and organize.


Thanks, John! Wish I could have made it. Maybe/hopefully see you next week...(be great to get a report on the conference).

Cheers.
Brian in SLC
Joined Oct 6, 2003
10,997 points
Nov 18, 2012
Me again!
Mr. Holmes wrote:
outdoorindustry.org/pdf/OIA_Ou... This is how big we are.



Quite a report from the outdoorindustry.org. It seems like this might be the group to most effective to spearhead a lobbyist campaign for outdoor recreation. Sadly, if you notice, we don't even make the list of top outdoor activities, biking does though, I wonder why?

The problem with climbers is the great diversity of "ethics". Our ethics hold us back in so many ways. No other sport has ego's surrounding "ethics" the way ours does. Other sports build trails, they build camping spots, they build rapids in a river; they build and impact nature while note bitching about "the place of nature". We argue about who's balls are biggest and why we shouldn't replace an anchor. We continually cut each other down in the name of esoteric ethics and cause more problems for ourselves than all the critics in the world. Rallies cries are about historical precedent, this is what climbing should be, other groups think this, and why we should "keep the masses away". We do not ask how we can accommodate more people and how we can make our sport more appealing. Bikers don't expect other bikers to use 40 pound rigid frames because it makes you more of a man, and fishing has worked out a balance between their versions of sport and trad. If we keep this up, I expect we will be marginalized. Our need to keep the beginners down and the crowds out keeps us as climbers out of the top five and makes us untenable as an advocacy group.

Now excuse me while I go chop every route under 5.12 and every trad anchor to solve this problem.
J Q
Joined Mar 11, 2012
48 points


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