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Tahoe bouldering guides coming out June
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By Owen Summerscales
From Los Alamos, NM
Jan 16, 2013
Gerle creek at loon lake
FYI, the first of Dave Hatchett's comprehensive tahoe bouldering guides comes out this june, covering the north and west shore areas, and a phenomenal quantity of high quality bouldering. Most of the stuff in these books has previously been the preserve of locals via word of mouth.

Daves done an awesome job on both documenting these problems and putting them together in a seriously slick design.. think of the current bishop guide.

laketahoebouldering.com/

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By ShaunG
From El Paso
Jun 2, 2014
Animal Acts
This guidebook has great photos and many fantastic newer boulder problems. GPS coordinates were great, but if you don't have one, good luck; Area directions are confusing with unnecessary details. Many necessary details that shld have been included but weren't. The entire book should be improved in order to be a better GUIDE to the boulder locations.

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By Schwisow
From Incline Village, NV
Jun 6, 2014
ok sean, i bet you could do a better job. everyone has to complain about something. how do you think we find spots for the 1st time. hey, dont buy his book then. south/east shore will be split into 2 volumes. it was well over 600 pages and kinda bulky. the need to split was necessary. starting on the hwy 50 corridor, reaching down to kirkwood, out to ronin and all the way up to incline village.

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By shotwell
Jun 6, 2014
Schwisow wrote:
ok sean, i bet you could do a better job. everyone has to complain about something. how much more does he need to spoon feed bay area rats info? how do you think we find spots for the 1st time. hey, dont buy his book then. south/east shore will be split into 2 volumes. it was well over 600 pages and kinda bulky. the need to split was necessary. starting on the hwy 50 corridor, reaching down to kirkwood, out to ronin and all the way up to incline village.


As it is a guide book, I think the call for accurate directions is not unreasonable. My wife and I just spent a month in Tahoe and while we were able to find almost all of the boulders, there were some that took far longer than they should have. Almost all stated distances are wrong and no landmarks are given for the majority of boulders. We are experienced outdoor climbers, not gym rats.


For anyone considering making a trip from a long distance to Tahoe, please take a shit ton of foam. This is not a joke. With just the two of us, it was hard to carry enough padding to make a lot of the boulders anything but insane. As a point of reference, my wife was comfortable doing the close to 20 foot Spiderman Sit in North Bliss with a single Big Organic. She and I were both totally uncomfortable with many of the other landings that we encountered with two Big and one Simple Organic. Again, we are experienced boulderers, and fairly comfortable with 'ok' landings.

To conclude, this certainly isn't the worst guide I've ever used, but it is in my bottom three. If you are considering coming from further than the Bay, please be aware the guidebook may drastically misrepresent the padding and spotting skill that you will need to climb as a small group. It is highly unlikely that you will run into any other climbers any time but the weekend (and then only at North Bliss and Lost in Space.) We found it significantly more difficult to pad than any place we have been before, which is a very long list.

EDIT: Also, how are you supposed to know that a guide book is shitty and inaccurate before you buy it? Nice response, Schwisow.

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By Schwisow
From Incline Village, NV
Jun 6, 2014
the distance if off, f!! thats not good. land marks?? yeah, putting rock cairns is about the best effort we do.
thanks

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By ShaunG
From El Paso
Jun 7, 2014
Animal Acts
I was kindly trying to make suggestions about how to improve the guidebook for the future. I just made the observation that it lacks in the most essential requirements for a guidebook- that would be the guiding part. To answer your question, yes I want to be spoon fed my areas, that's why I'm buying the book. It's obvious from your dummy account that, you either are the guidebook author or a good friend of the authors, so it might not be wise to recommend to people not to buy the book... A little counterproductive to the capitalist society you're trying to pander to. No need to get personal.

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By Schwisow
From Incline Village, NV
Jun 7, 2014
now im crying :( money is not the goal homey.

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By Owen Summerscales
From Los Alamos, NM
Jun 13, 2014
Gerle creek at loon lake
Daves idea with the cartoon maps was that finding the boulders is part of the adventure, and he did not want to necessarily remove that from the experience. However, he included gps so that for those who wanted to go straight to the good stuff, they could do that also.

If you dont own a gps, I would say as a boulderer who wants to venture beyond the bishop/yosemite/joes/hueco honey pots, it is a valuable investment as a piece of gear (and what costs the price of a couple of cams??)

If you really are flat broke, and cant afford gps or smart phone, and do not want the "adventure" element, then you can put the gps coords into google earth on your desktop computer, and with a little orientation you should be able to construct your own directions pretty quickly and easily.

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By czar
Jun 13, 2014
You guys are high, that book is a piece of ...art. without it you wouldnt know where half of the rocks are, yet it is still not good enough for you. go outside, get dirty, have a beer, relax AND try hard, but complaining is for sissies. get lost, in the woods

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By Schwisow
From Incline Village, NV
Jun 13, 2014
thats the spirit brewsif

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By Jared Moore
From Tahoma, CA
Jun 13, 2014
Cover
czar wrote:
You guys are high, that book is a piece of ...art. without it you wouldnt know where half of the rocks are, yet it is still not good enough for you. go outside, get dirty, have a beer, relax AND try hard, but complaining is for sissies. get lost, in the woods


I agree. Just got this book, and I don't see any room for complaining. It's very well put together and very aesthetic to look at. Have not had any problems finding places, either.

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By shotwell
Jun 13, 2014
czar wrote:
You guys are high, that book is a piece of ...art. without it you wouldnt know where half of the rocks are, yet it is still not good enough for you. go outside, get dirty, have a beer, relax AND try hard, but complaining is for sissies. get lost, in the woods


My opinion remains that I have less trouble finding boulders, routes, or anything else in guidebooks written in a language that I don't speak than in this. Congratulations on having no trouble, yet. You'll run into some before the end, or I'm mistaken.

I don't care to get and drag around a GPS, I expect that a guidebook be functional. Out of the 100+ guidebooks I've used in my life, the accuracy of directions fall in the bottom 5% in this book. If I can wander around Spain and France and use the maps effectively, I should certainly be able to use them in the USA. I respect that you all have opinions that differ, and that is totally cool by me. I do, however, think that it is important that people traveling across country know what the situation is. Again, prepare to get lost, bring a ton of foam, and be prepared to get lost. Sorry, but I just wasn't a fan.

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By DaveHatchett
Jul 16, 2014
Geez, no wonder I never go on these sites. 2 complaints out of 1000 plus books sold isnt to bad. But seriously, bad directions? Hard to find? I admit it's a little harder to find boulders in a dense forest than your local Starbucks or climbing gym, but if you have any moutain savvy or a slight sense of adventure you wil find the directions are solid. The other 998 did. If you have any input to make the directions better please submit them for the 2nd edition, I will glady use it. The guides will refine and get better with peoples input over the years. When I went climbing today I didnt even bring my guide, I found the boulders and my chalkbag was over 1/2 full. I guess some peoples are always almost empty.

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By DaveHatchett
Jul 16, 2014
I gotta call out "Shotwell" on this: "please be aware the guidebook may drastically misrepresent the padding and spotting skill that you will need to climb as a small group."
ANSWER:Guidebooks tell you where a climb is and how hard it might be, they dont tell you haw many pads you might need or how to spot. You figure that for yourself when you look at the climb.

And this: "My opinion remains that I have less trouble finding boulders, routes, or anything else in guidebooks written in a language that I don't speak than in this."
ANSWER: This makes sense because clearly your don't speak my language. I speak common sense. Got any?

Sorry for the hate, but when I see complete crap I have to say something. To conclude: Sounds like you could benifit from a GPS, but something tells me you would have a hard time finding the power button.

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By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Jul 16, 2014
Mt. Agassiz
Classy rant, from the author himself.

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By shotwell
Jul 16, 2014
DaveHatchett wrote:
I gotta call out "Shotwell" on this: "please be aware the guidebook may drastically misrepresent the padding and spotting skill that you will need to climb as a small group." ANSWER:Guidebooks tell you where a climb is and how hard it might be, they dont tell you haw many pads you might need or how to spot. You figure that for yourself when you look at the climb. And this: "My opinion remains that I have less trouble finding boulders, routes, or anything else in guidebooks written in a language that I don't speak than in this." ANSWER: This makes sense because clearly your don't speak my language. I speak common sense. Got any? Sorry for the hate, but when I see complete crap I have to say something. To conclude: Sounds like you could benifit from a GPS, but something tells me you would have a hard time finding the power button.


Nice response, Dave.

I have many suggestions about how you could improve your guidebook, but I'll keep them to myself. If you reviewed your directions, there is a chance you might catch some of the more obvious mistakes.

I've climbed in forested areas, approached cliffs from above with no more beta than 'look for the wall with the chalk,' and managed to make it absolutely everywhere I've tried to go in the past. Never has it been as hard as you made it.

Also, you do represent the 'danger' associated with a climb with your icons. I never got hurt out there and neither did my wife. We looked at boulders and made an assessment. However, I could have saved some time in going to look at remote boulders if those icons were remotely accurate. Believe it or not, I don't have time to hike out twice to some of the little fields in Tahoe to find out how many pads I need. That is a minor annoyance though, so perhaps I should have kept it to myself.

Finally, you don't deserve any help. Believe it or not, you're representing a business venture here. I paid for this book, so I don't owe you anything. I don't have any compelling reason to help you do anything but fail. My review of your book was based on my experience with it as compared to at least 100 other guidebooks.

P.S. Did you read guideline #1 before you posted?

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By Boulderdoc
Jul 16, 2014
Wow, just wow.

Dude, I cannot believe you. You and your wife need to go to Bishop. Seriously. Easy approaches, lots of people and amenities.

Tahoe is Epic. Lifers absolutely love it. I've been all over the world and can tell you it's one of the best areas around. Dave and other locals made trails and cleaned lichen and opened sick lines for themselves, you and I.

You said in your first paragraph "My wife and I just spent a month in Tahoe and while we were able to find almost all of the boulders, there were some that took far longer than they should have."

So let's see... You found all the boulders, but you were butt-hurt that it took you a bit longer. Dude, if you need that kind of hand-holding, I'm tellin you, Bishop.

Perhaps the directions were written for more experienced/astute orienteers, but I've heard first-hand from climbers that they found the directions spot on.

When someone writes a guide, they do the best job they can usually. In Dave's case, he did just about the best job possible. This is one of the best guides I've seen and I used it effortlessly to find several new zones that I had never been to.

I get no money from this guide and have not been in contact with Dave or the Tahoe crew, in fact, I live in Colorado now.

Sometimes people find something to hate on when they really are upset about something else. Perhaps the climbs were a bit hard or hard to find? That's on you and your wife my man. Fact is, a guide is just a guide. If you were able to get to the boulders with it, it did its job. I challenge you to write better descriptions to get to the boulders and give them to Dave. He will be the first to admit that the beta is better if indeed it is. I'm betting it wouldn't be. Until then, realize that it's your skill level that made it hard to find hard-to-find boulders with great beta.

Your review is misleading to other would-be Tahoe boulderers, and downright offensive to a crew that spent hundreds of hours searching, cleaning, developing, recording and putting together a massive guide to some of America's best bouldering.

You don't need to respond as I won't be checking anyhow.

Noah

Noah T. Kaufman, MD

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By shotwell
Jul 16, 2014
Boulderdoc wrote:
Wow, just wow. Dude, I cannot believe you. You and your wife need to go to Bishop. Seriously. Easy approaches, lots of people and amenities. Tahoe is Epic. Lifers absolutely love it. I've been all over the world and can tell you it's one of the best areas around. Dave and other locals made trails and cleaned lichen and opened sick lines for themselves, you and I. You said in your first paragraph "My wife and I just spent a month in Tahoe and while we were able to find almost all of the boulders, there were some that took far longer than they should have." So let's see... You found all the boulders, but you were butt-hurt that it took you a bit longer. Dude, if you need that kind of hand-holding, I'm tellin you, Bishop. Perhaps the directions were written for more experienced/astute orienteers, but I've heard first-hand from climbers that they found the directions spot on. When someone writes a guide, they do the best job they can usually. In Dave's case, he did just about the best job possible. This is one of the best guides I've seen and I used it effortlessly to find several new zones that I had never been to. I get no money from this guide and have not been in contact with Dave or the Tahoe crew, in fact, I live in Colorado now. Sometimes people find something to hate on when they really are upset about something else. Perhaps the climbs were a bit hard or hard to find? That's on you and your wife my man. Fact is, a guide is just a guide. If you were able to get to the boulders with it, it did its job. I challenge you to write better descriptions to get to the boulders and give them to Dave. He will be the first to admit that the beta is better if indeed it is. I'm betting it wouldn't be. Until then, realize that it's your skill level that made it hard to find hard-to-find boulders with great beta. Your review is misleading to other would-be Tahoe boulderers, and downright offensive to a crew that spent hundreds of hours searching, cleaning, developing, recording and putting together a massive guide to some of America's best bouldering. You don't need to respond as I won't be checking anyhow. Noah Noah T. Kaufman, MD


Noah, I know that this has hurt a lot of feelings. That is obvious from the responses. I do appreciate all of the hard work that went into the trails, boulders, landings, and other development in the area. I think that you all did a nice job of creating an area that has a great feel if you know what to expect going into it. I personally wouldn't go again without a crew, and I would take more than a month to give myself time to not feel rushed. Of course, I would fucking love it if I lived there.

Long story short, I wouldn't drive 3000 miles with just my wife again. I felt like we needed more foam and more spotting to do the best lines.

Have a nice day.

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By Paul Zander
From Flagstaff, AZ
Jul 16, 2014
echo lake
Sooo, Dave- When can I order the new south/east shore book?

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By DaveHatchett
Jul 17, 2014
Paul Zander wrote:
Sooo, Dave- When can I order the new south/east shore book?

Books will be in shops and available from the website around August 1st if the boat arrives on time. Enjoy!!

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By DaveHatchett
Jul 21, 2014
Mr Shotwell-
If I offended you I am truly sorry.

You drew first blood with your false comments about my book. I fully guarantee my driving, approach and route info to be near perfect. If it took you a little longer than it took me to walk to the boulders I'm sorry. I guess I'm just a faster walker than you. I timed all the approaches with a stopwatch. Twice. Also you said "no landmarks are given for the majority of boulders" I kinda thought the boulder itself (with a gps cordinate) and a color picture were pretty dam good landmarks. Every boulder also has a description of where it is in the cluster and its shown on the overview maps. Lets get real, there are no landmarks that would help. Trees? Bushes? More trees? Come on now.

Comments and constructive criticism are welcome. Lies are not.

I suggest you take a step back and consider a few things. Like how hard it is to find the boulders in a dense forest with a long and complex approach. Sometimes it may take multiple trips to really dial it in. Now consider trying to explain how to do this long, complex approach. If you have not read page 14 in the introduction I suggest reading it carefully. ShaunG to, please.

Please clarify this comment for me "However, I could have saved some time in going to look at remote boulders if those icons were remotely accurate".....I dont get it. Your saying my highball, bad landing, tech and reachy icons are not even close?? I call BS. Using page numbers, please give me 2 examples of icons that are not accurate. By your account that should be a breeze.

Maybe I was a little harsh in my first respone. Maybe if you think about it a bit you might think the same about your words and review. I wrote this book not for profit, but as a huge community service to get people like you out to the boulders. I am proud of my work and I think it's one of the better guides my library. Maybe Im wrong, I've only been climbing and using guides for 30 years and I have alot still to learn. But I can tell you this for sure, countless expert and novice climbers have told me this is one of the best guides they have ever used and they have had zero problems finding the boulders.

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By shotwell
Jul 21, 2014
Dave,

I don't have the book with me right now, it is in another state. However, I will admit that I was perhaps a little harsh. Sorry for that, and I hope that it is clear that I understand what your goals with the book were.

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By DaveHatchett
Jul 23, 2014
Now we are getting somewhere positive!

I went to Summit Lake yesturday and doubled checked my directions. They were spot on according to my odometer. My friend hiked in on the other approach (for the first time) and he said the same. Then when we got to the boulders, Jon and Warren got us temporaily lost trying to find some new boulders they had just developed last week. This place can be the Bermuda Triangle with all the trees, ridges, gullies, etc. As I said, reading page 14 will clarify and help in this matter.

We had 8 pads with us which opend up many opportunities that you counldnt do without them. We generally have lots of pads and a big crew. As you stated, you will have a better time here with the same.

I think when you talk about my symbols being incorrect perhaps you are talking about the number of pads needed? To clarify, The "Bad Landing" symbol means no amount of pads will make it safe. In general, 3-4 big pads will make any problem in my book without the "Bad Landing" symbol fairly safe. Highball in Tahoe starts around 20 ft for the most part. Any less is just average. We have big boulders here!

You did give me a possible good idea. I have never seen this in a guide before, but a "Several Pads Needed" symbol isnt a bad idea. What do you think? It sounds like it would have helped you. Or is this overkill and TMI? This would be easy to do, I just need to pick a proper symbol. I will pass this idea around the communtiy for the 2nd edition.

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By Owen Summerscales
From Los Alamos, NM
Jul 23, 2014
Gerle creek at loon lake
Personally I find guides that have a gazllion icons for every climb totally useless - it just becomes some hieroglyphics that I just ignore. An icon that says "bring lots of pads" isnt terribly helpful either - do you need 4? or 6? or 10?

I think stating in the description (without an icon) is useful for standout problems - Im always bummed when I hike out to a problem which has 3 stars, only to find that its 25 ft high and you need a massive amount of foam.

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By weschrist
Sep 5, 2014
Boulders in Tahoe are generally scattered due to geography and geology... not just a cluster of boulders sitting on a smooth hillside visible for miles. The terrain can be complex, visibility limited, and the only landmarks are often "the big dead tree", which is temporary and ambiguous at best. I can see how some people could get lost even with good directions. That said, I have yet to get lost using Dave's guide and I'm glad we finally have a guidebook for Tahoe. It is a great guide by any standard.

Maybe shotwell just needs to spend more time in the area and get to know the terrain? I'd be curious to hear what guides he considers fitting for his level of expertise.

And I agree, extra foam won't hurt. I think Sports LTD is renting bouldering pads these days.

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