Tagline Rappel
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When do you guys use a tagline rappel? Do you use it on slabby, vertical, and/or overhanging terrain? When you are planning on rappelling, or hoping to walk off and bringing the tagline in case something goes wrong? When the rappel anchor is on a large ledge or not? On rock, ice, or both? At the crag or in the alpine? What technique do you use to join and pull the ropes? |
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I'll jump in- I always rap both lead and tag line together..always. You carried it, use it. |
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A great option that I have fallen for is to use twin/double ropes in general where you can clip one or both. I much prefer it for many reasons (able to use more QDs vs. ADs, less prone to rope getting cut, able to escape safer and quicker and of course light). |
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Never had any issue with ropes of diff diameters..as long as the tagline is static ! |
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I have a 75m x 7mm Sterling tag line, which I bring on every multi-pitch climb I do unless (a) there's a nice walk-off, and bailing is unlikely, or (b) I am certain I can rappel the route with just my lead line (common in areas with bolted belays). The tag line tangles very easily and is kind of shitty to deal with in high winds; this is why Colin Haley suggests pulling the tag line instead of the lead line every time. |
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john strand wrote:I'll jump in- I always rap both lead and tag line together..always. You carried it, use it. Tie knots in both ropes, but not together. pull either and alternate on multiple raps. getting the rope stuck happens to everyone sometimes, you learn how avoid hangs ups through experience only..and sometimes it still happens. IMO having to "use the tag line" is the most overeaction thing I can think of..you just don't do it.Would you say that it is safe to tie together a 6mm static tagline with a 9.8mm lead line and rap off of it? If so, which knot(s) would you use? And if not, which respective diameters for the lead and tag lines would be appropriate, and which knot(s) would you use? Another technique that might work is to rig your rappel with the carabiner block method linked to in my original post, but tie it so that you are pulling the lead line. That way, if your rope gets stuck, you can climb back up on your lead line to free it. I feel like I would only feel comfortable doing this on a tagline >= 8mm in diameter because you would have to single rope rap on the tagline. Thoughts? |
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I bought a tagline early in my climbing career and used it twice (successfully) before I purchased doubles. Since then, the tagline has just sat in the bottom of my climbing bin. |
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wfscot wrote:I bought a tagline early in my climbing career and used it twice (successfully) before I purchased doubles. Since then, the tagline has just sat in the bottom of my climbing bin. Maybe I'm just not getting it but for me, the benefits of doubles (inherent backup when leading, better rope drag management, always have a dynamic rope to chase a stuck rope, no rappel weirdness) far outweigh the slight advantages of a tagline (easier rope management while climbing, which is slight once you get used to doubles). Is there anyone that has climbed more than a few times with doubles yet continues to use a tagline? If so, what's your reasoning?I definitely agree that double ropes are the safer choice for long routes, especially when full length rappels are required. However, I am cheap and a single + tagline is what I have to work with right now, so I am curious if there is any way to make rappels safer than with the method I used once before. Also for now I like the simplicity of leading on a single, although I have lead on doubles a few times before. One day I will probably invest in a nice pair of doubles and then there won't be any issue with full length rappels. |
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wfscot wrote:Is there anyone that has climbed more than a few times with doubles yet continues to use a tagline? If so, what's your reasoning?Jugging & hauling. Can't do either w/ a pair of doubles. |
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I have no use for double ropes..never have,,never will. you fall on a single rope that is not rated as a single rope...if you clip both, then just use a single.In 35+ years, i have used doubles maybe 3x..maybe |
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This is slightly off topic, but I have been meaning to ask: what is the thinnest tag line you would consider using? Since the goal is reducing weight while facilitating a full-length rap, why not, for example, use a 4-mil tagline (with a biner blocker on the main rope)? I assume the minimum diameter limit for a tag line is based on one's comfort level with the strength of the knot used to tie together two lines of very different diameters, and also how squirrelly a thin tag line can be in any kind of wind. Thanks. |
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john strand wrote:I have no use for double ropes..never have,,never will. you fall on a single rope that is not rated as a single rope...if you clip both, then just use a single.In 35+ years, i have used doubles maybe 3x..maybe I have used a 6mm tied figure 8 with an 10.5mm..iffy. Now i almost always use a 7mm with an 10mm lead..never a problem.If you don't need to jug or haul w/ the tag line, a pair of double will be safer/lighter for both climbing & rappelling. |
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Rocky_Mtn_High wrote:This is slightly off topic, but I have been meaning to ask: what is the thinnest tag line you would consider using? Since the goal is reducing weight while facilitating a full-length rap, why not, for example, use a 4-mil tagline (with a biner blocker on the main rope)? I assume the minimum diameter limit for a tag line is based on one's comfort level with the strength of the knot used to tie together two lines of very different diameters, and also how squirrelly a thin tag line can be in any kind of wind.I've tried 5mm, 6mm and 7mmm tag lines. I've settled on 6mm. Wind isn't so much an issue if pulling the tag line. One way to realize that: first person to rap ties free end of tag line to themselves. As they rap, second person is feeding out the tag line as needed. Once down they reel in the remainder. Later, when pulling the tag line, most or all of the tag line will be down before the fat rope comes free of the anchor. Strength is a factor but I think not as much as how much harder it can be to pull down the smaller diameter tag line. It doesn't take much rock-rubbing-on-fat-rope to make it scare-y hard to get enough grip to pull down on the tag line. A 5 mm has to be gripped roughly around half again as hard as a 6mm which is already ~3 times as hard as a 10mm. Well, maybe not quite that bad but you get the idea. |
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I use a tag line all the time. Typically 9.4mm with 6mm. I rap on both strands just like two ropes, I just make sure to thread the anchor so that the 9.4mm is running through the anchor, not the 6mm. Beyond that, it's just a standard rap. I see absolutely no reason in rapping down on one strand instead of both. There is absolutely no safety advantage (a disadvantage actually) to only using one strand. It's also easier to pull the rope if you join the two together with an EDK instead of the the technique described in your link. With the technique in the link, you run a much higher chance of snagging the dynamic rope, leaving only the tag line in your hands. In cases where the EDK knot will not act as a stopper knot at the anchor, then the technique shown in the photo is appropriate. Just make sure that you watch the ends of the strands since the rope diameters are so different. |
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reboot wrote: If you don't need to jug or haul w/ the tag line, a pair of double will be safer/lighter for both climbing & rappelling.In what ways? 2 8.5mm are lighter than a 6/10mm combo I don't think so..and as far as safer..questionable at best i'll take the simplicity and safety of a single line |
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john strand wrote: In what ways? 2 8.5mm are lighter than a 6/10mm combo I don't think so..and as far as safer..questionable at best i'll take the simplicity and safety of a single lineI think that it is safer to make full-length rappels with double ropes because if your ropes get stuck while pulling them, you still have a rope that is rated to hold leader falls on its own to climb back up on and free the stuck rope. In terms of climbing, it probably depends highly on the situation. Perhaps double ropes are safer if the route has lots of sharp flakes and edges that could potentially cut the rope. If you use double ropes, each rope is running on a different path, which makes it less like that both of them will get cut in a fall. Also double ropes are probably safer if you are swinging sharp things around. |
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Safety is more than "safety" |
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Does anyone have any thoughts on the alternate technique that I mentioned? |
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bearbreeder wrote:Safety is more than "safety" ;)Yes. A cookie cutter view doesn't always fit so well in this complex climbing world. :-) |
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Alex Abrams wrote:Does anyone have any thoughts on the alternate technique that I mentioned? Buy a tagline that you are comfortable rappelling on as a single rope. For me this would be something >= 8mm in diameter. Set up the "carabiner brake" method linked to in my original post, except rigged to pull the climbing rope. Single rope rap on the tagline to the next anchor. Untie stopper knots, pull climbing rope. Repeat until you are at the base. This way, if the ropes get hung up you can safely lead back up on your climbing rope to free the stuck ropes. Thoughts? Any reason why I shouldn't do this?No particular reason why your alternative method won't work, though I don't understand why you would insist on rapping on the single thinner strand of the tagline, rather than simply rapping on both strands. In any case, the point of a tag line is to save as much weight as possible, IMO, so I'd prefer to bring a 6mm tagline, as 20kN suggested (in which case you need to pull the thinner tagline down to retrieve the rope). If I were all that concerned about my rope getting stuck and having to lead up on the tagline, then I'd simply use double ropes rather than a single rope and a relatively heavy tagline that is ">=8mm". |
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The reason I see and would like to hear why people are doing other wise is: |