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steroids and climbing?
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By frankstoneline
Feb 8, 2013
steroids: not worth the risk of being called raisinballs or grapenuts for the rest of your life.

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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Feb 8, 2013
modern man
J Q wrote:
Seems like genetics are a better bet than roids in this case.


and whats funny is that these are not genes passed down from royalty, these are monkey genes. all the best climbers are closely related to apes.

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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Feb 8, 2013
modern man
frankstoneline wrote:
steroids: not worth the risk of being called raisinballs or grapenuts for the rest of your life.


tell that to an NFL team

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By frankstoneline
Feb 8, 2013
TRmasta wrote:
tell that to an NFL team


only from the safety of the internetz. them boys would crush me

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By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
Feb 8, 2013
Stabby
There was a ton of innuendo about certain personalities back in the early 90's; which often coincided with a sudden surge in ability.

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By Ryan Palo
From Bend, oregon
Feb 8, 2013
Me
Aerili, I tend to come these enduro routes running huge deficits. Most of the high end lines are just that, endurance (well actually power endurance). I find that being able to effectively manage your heart rate at rests and on route is key.

I would agree with you otherwise, but since we're talking about high end climbing and not your standard 1-2 crux adventure, I think EPO would be key.

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By CalStaben
From Lexington, KY
Feb 8, 2013
If one were to dope in climbing, what would a climber take? It seems like most anecdotal and experimental evidence correlates climbing ability to finger strength - there doesn't seem to be much that specifically targets this capacity. Sure, you could get ferociously strong (possibly with some negative side effects like increased bulk) and be able to crank pull-ups until the cows come home, but would that strength, presumably gained from anabolic steroids, transfer proportionally to your climbing? Likewise, it would almost certainly help to take EPO, but for the sake of a sport climbing RP (and many big walls come down to sport-like crux pitches) those effects would be marginal. So I guess that sure, people could dope, but I don't know of a particularly efficient way to gain ligament strength, which would generate finger strength.

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By Acumen
Feb 8, 2013
How about non-steroid supplements? Is there anything that is actually helpful? I take a whey, a multivitamin, and glucosamine. I think they probably do help my overall health and climbing ability.

I asked a couple instructors if there was anything climbers took, the answer was always 'weed' ha.

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By Ryan Palo
From Bend, oregon
Feb 8, 2013
Me
Acumen, there's a bit of truth to that. Most of the usual suspects are big fans of the cig-o-weed. Whether that's of any help is anyone's guess.

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By frankstoneline
Feb 8, 2013
Ryan Palo wrote:
Acumen, there's a bit of truth to that. Most of the usual suspects are big fans of the cig-o-weed. Whether that's of any help is anyone's guess.


I think I read a blog post where someone addressed the effects (albeit not super scientific if I remember correctly) of weed on climber friends. will try to dig it up.

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By JCM
From Seattle, WA
Feb 8, 2013
The other substance that hasn't been mentioned yet is HGH. This would be very useful to a climber because of its ability to aid recovery. Faster recovery means that you can stack workouts closer together, and compress the time scale of the supercompensation cycle...and get stronger faster. HGH is used for this reason by athletes in various sports.

Additionally, the recovery-enhancing properties of HGH would be useful in any multi-day climbing endeavors. The obvious application is free routes on El Cap, where a limiting factor is the ability to recover between climbing days. This could be useful even in the single-pitch setting; faster recovery means more opportunities to have a good attempt on your project during a two-week trip. This won't exactly make a 5.11 climbing into a 5.14 climber overnight, but it would help a climber send more things in the time they have.

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By JoeP
From Littleton, CO
Feb 8, 2013
JCM wrote:
The other substance that hasn't been mentioned yet is HGH. This would be very useful to a climber because of its ability to aid recovery. Faster recovery means that you can stack workouts closer together, and compress the time scale of the supercompensation cycle...and get stronger faster. HGH is used for this reason by athletes in various sports. Additionally, the recovery-enhancing properties of HGH would be useful in any multi-day climbing endeavors. The obvious application is free routes on El Cap, where a limiting factor is the ability to recover between climbing days. This could be useful even in the single-pitch setting; faster recovery means more opportunities to have a good attempt on your project during a two-week trip. This won't exactly make a 5.11 climbing into a 5.14 climber overnight, but it would help a climber send more things in the time they have.


That and testosterone. Blood transfusions is likely a bit too sophisticated for climbers, but items that can be injected or creams (e.g. corticosteroids) seem like more useful/convenient items.

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By superkick
From West Hartford, CT
Feb 8, 2013
Free Solo up hitchcock gully WI3
but a high altitude climber technically cold dope their blood to perform better at altitude.

not sure why youd want to.. but in theory it would probide an advantage.

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By Superclimber
Feb 8, 2013
Corticosteroids are not the same as anabolic steroids. Corticosteroids are usually used for their powerful anti-imflammatory or immune suppressive effect . So maybe they would help with soreness short term, but long term there is evidence to suggest they have an ill effect on connective tissue. Besides that, long term use of corticosteroids makes you fat. Google Cushing's Syndrome. Frankly, I DON'T even think cortisone shots are a good idea for the elbow pain many of us get.

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By Superclimber
Feb 8, 2013
JCM wrote:
The other substance that hasn't been mentioned yet is HGH. This would be very useful to a climber because of its ability to aid recovery. Faster recovery means that you can stack workouts closer together, and compress the time scale of the supercompensation cycle...and get stronger faster. HGH is used for this reason by athletes in various sports. Additionally, the recovery-enhancing properties of HGH would be useful in any multi-day climbing endeavors. The obvious application is free routes on El Cap, where a limiting factor is the ability to recover between climbing days. This could be useful even in the single-pitch setting; faster recovery means more opportunities to have a good attempt on your project during a two-week trip. This won't exactly make a 5.11 climbing into a 5.14 climber overnight, but it would help a climber send more things in the time they have.


I would still argue that poorly vascularized connective tissues like tendons probably wouldn't keep up with highly vascular muscular tissue. So I would imagine that they would still be prone to the same elbow problems as the rest of us.

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By kenr
Feb 8, 2013
superkick wrote:
but a high altitude climber technically cold dope their blood to perform better at altitude. not sure why youd want to.. but in theory it would probide an advantage.

Having more Red Blood Cells improves athletic performance substantially only for categories of performance where maximum oxygen utilization is a critical performance bottleneck.

No doubt for running up steep hills, oxygen is critical. The open question is whether maximum oxygen is critical for "technical" climbing. Just because you're breathing hard after doing a sequence of moves doesn't mean you got anywhere near VO2max power output.

For performance categories where maximum oxygen utilization is critical, then the speed increase from having more Red Blood Cells is just as large (or larger) at sea level than it is at high altitude.

Also the proportionally higher risk of getting a serious embolism from having more Red Blood Cells is similar.

Low Oxygen pressure is just one convenient stimulus to get your body to build more Red Blood Cells. Once you got em, they work just fine for high-Oxygen performance also.

Ken

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By Chris Rice
Feb 8, 2013
PEDs include many drugs besides the testosterone based families of drugs commonly called "steroids". If you read the list of banned drugs for sport listed by WADA etc - I think you would find most of you are already guilty of using some kind of drug that would get you tossed if you were in the Olympics.

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By JoeP
From Littleton, CO
Feb 8, 2013
Chris Miller wrote:
Corticosteroids are not the same as anabolic steroids. Corticosteroids are usually used for their powerful anti-imflammatory or immune suppressive effect . So maybe they would help with soreness short term, but long term there is evidence to suggest they have an ill effect on connective tissue. Besides that, long term use of corticosteroids makes you fat. Google Cushing's Syndrome. Frankly, I DON'T even think cortisone shots are a good idea for the elbow pain many of us get.


No shit. Seems like a good product for use in a multi-day comp don't ya think? Ill effects on connective tissue is based on long-term use delivered through injections or orally, not topical treatment. Not too many fat pro cyclists using it, are there?

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By Superclimber
Feb 8, 2013
JoeP wrote:
No shit. Seems like a good product for use in a multi-day comp don't ya think?

Yeah, maybe.

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By Superclimber
Feb 8, 2013
Chris Rice wrote:
PEDs include many drugs besides the testosterone based families of drugs commonly called "steroids". If you read the list of banned drugs for sport listed by WADA etc - I think you would find most of you are already guilty of using some kind of drug that would get you tossed if you were in the Olympics.

That's interesting. So I guess if you're a diabetic or have high blood pressure you're shit out of luck.

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By Aerili
From Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 8, 2013
The West Desert...it's not just for climbing, suckers! <br /> <br />Photo by Samantha
Ryan Palo wrote:
Aerili, I tend to come these enduro routes running huge deficits. Most of the high end lines are just that, endurance (well actually power endurance). I find that being able to effectively manage your heart rate at rests and on route is key. I would agree with you otherwise, but since we're talking about high end climbing and not your standard 1-2 crux adventure, I think EPO would be key.

Nope. Still do not believe enduro routes even remotely tax the aerobic system in the manner that running, cycling, Nordic skiing, or slogging up a mountain do (and which EPO would help). I pretty much guarantee you are not having a problem with lacking O2 cells to supply your body on technical routes regardless of the grade.

High heart rate is a sign of anaerobia, actually. When your heart rate spikes and you're trying to catch your breath, you're far more anaerobic and O2 is not an issue.

kenr pretty much reiterates this if you read his post above.

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By Ryan Palo
From Bend, oregon
Feb 8, 2013
Me
Aerili, thanks for the input. I was under the impression that kind of PED helped raise the anaerobic threshold. Im going to quit seeing that guy behind GNC.

Here's a list of some other PEDs that might be of use:
-Miralax
-coffee
-phentermine
-cigarettes
-adderall

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By Superclimber
Feb 8, 2013
Ryan Palo wrote:
Aerili, thanks for the input. I was under the impression that kind of PED helped raise the anaerobic threshold. Im going to quit seeing that guy behind GNC. Here's a list of some other PEDs that might be of use: -Miralax -coffee -phentermine -cigarettes -adderall

I bet Sharma could break 5.16 with that stack. But you better keep that shit away from Ondra, he's got an anger management problem.

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By JCM
From Seattle, WA
Feb 8, 2013
Chris Miller wrote:
I bet Sharma could break 5.16 with that stack. But you better keep that shit away from Ondra, he's got an anger management problem.


Oh dear god.

Adam Ondra + Steroids = 5.16b + Epic pterodactyl shrieking roid rage

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By Aerili
From Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 9, 2013
The West Desert...it's not just for climbing, suckers! <br /> <br />Photo by Samantha
Ryan Palo wrote:
Aerili, thanks for the input. I was under the impression that kind of PED helped raise the anaerobic threshold. Im going to quit seeing that guy behind GNC. Here's a list of some other PEDs that might be of use: -Miralax -coffee -phentermine -cigarettes -adderall


Certain performance enhancing drugs probably do raise anaerobic threshold. I just don't think EPO is one of them. I guess it is possible, but even if it did, I think there is a particular problem about it for climbers and that is: EPO would cause increased blood viscosity eventually and for a route climber that would probably = getting pumped more easily and more quickly. More blood cells trying to get through the same amount of capillaries in other words.

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