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steel quickdraws
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By J tot
From Tempe, AZ
Aug 17, 2010
zen

I do a fair amount of rope gunning for friends who want to TR a sport route. As a conscientious climber I have them TR off of two of my draws through the anchors.

Has anyone given thought to outfitting two quickdraws with a steel biner each so that they are specialized for this and don't wear out nearly as fast?


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By Woodchuck ATC
Aug 17, 2010
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

Probably most sport climbers don't want to haul that extra weight. Each one may outweigh many of your light draws.


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Aug 17, 2010
Bocan

It makes sense...I have two draws both with small locking biners on either end for top roping, so why not steel??

Sounds pretty simple..just do it!


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By Brent Apgar
From Out of the Loop
Aug 17, 2010
Me and Spearhead

In fact I have two draws exactly for this purpose. I've had them for a few years now and they're not showing any wear really, it's also nice for the fact that the steel doesn't leave a bunch of Aluminum oxide on the rope if you're spending a lot of time top roping a project.

I think that mine are from Omega Pacific, ones a wire gate and the other is an oval locker.


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By Arthur Cammers
From Lexington, KY
Aug 17, 2010
profile pic

Buy a pair of DMM revolvers and throw these on the ends of a pair of QDs. Works great.
www.dmmclimbing.com/productsDetails.asp?pid=1&pid2=76


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Aug 17, 2010
Bocan

Arthur Cammers wrote:
Buy a pair of DMM revolvers and throw these on the ends of a pair of QDs. Works great. www.dmmclimbing.com/productsDetails.asp?pid=1&pid2=76


Great idea, but those'll be some $60+ draws using the Revolvers.

God forbid he forgets them!!!


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By Sunny-D
From SLC, Utah
Aug 17, 2010
Top of Jah-Man Sister Superior

Naw, You can pick up 50kn ovals for about $10 each. It is a great idea if you are top roping a lot. I carry 2 steel ovals when I know I am going to set up top ropes they work great and yes your ropes stay cleaner. I wouldn't want to carry them up some alpine wall but for top roping at the crag they are great.
Dallen


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By Pete Spri
Aug 17, 2010

Omega Pacific makes a nice wiregate steel biner out of nicely rounded barstock.
www.omegapac.com/gym_dandy.html


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By sunder
From Alsip, Il
Aug 17, 2010
ICE PIT 2011

I have used the following for the past 5 years. Two BD Quicksilver 2 Lockers and Petzl Express Sling- 25 cm at the top of sport routes that we are going to TR.

I guess you could use OMEGA PACIFIC 7/16" STEEL MODIFIED D on one or both ends of the rope. The one gym i climb at uses these at the top of the lead routes. That would be one heavy ass draw though. But if your TR alot it may be worth it.


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By PRRose
From Boulder
Aug 17, 2010

Arthur Cammers wrote:
Buy a pair of DMM revolvers and throw these on the ends of a pair of QDs. Works great. www.dmmclimbing.com/productsDetails.asp?pid=1&pid2=76


Low-friction devices are not generally used for top-roping. If you do, make sure the belayer outweighs the climber and/or is securely anchored.


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By slim
Administrator
Aug 17, 2010
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

i always cringe when i see people recommend revolvers for a purpose like this. they are completely and utterly not made for this sort of thing.


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By Brian in SLC
Aug 17, 2010
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

slim wrote:
i always cringe when i see people recommend revolvers for a purpose like this. they are completely and utterly not made for this sort of thing.


Why not? From DMM's description of the product:

"However, there are other important factors to consider too. Since the rope rolls over the roller there will be less wear and tear on your rope which will increase its working life considerably."

So, you have a carabiner that would save both wear and tear on your rope, and, won't groove out like a regular TR carabiner.

Why is it utterly not made for this sort of thing?


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By slim
Administrator
Aug 17, 2010
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

brian, the friction at the top of a toprope setup is essential for providing the ability to counteract the load. if you basically have a pulley (ie the revolver, albeit a poor one), there is very little friction damping to help bring a moving object to a stop. for example, if you have a 160lb climber belayed by a 120lb belayer, the climber falls, the belayer totally locks off. how will the climber be arrested without assistance from the friction at the anchor point? he won't.

in a thread a few years ago, there was a guy who said that the friction at the anchor point is "inconsequential". this is false, it is essential.


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By slim
Administrator
Aug 17, 2010
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

another thing - if you use a pair of revolvers together, the pulley wheels will be rotating in opposite directions at the point where they are basically touching. not the end of the world, but another aspect that indicates that these aren't the tool for the job.


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By Daryl Allan
From Sierra Vista, AZ
Aug 17, 2010
Me and my Fetish I guess.. ;)

Here's a previous discussion on the topic

Petzl figured up the force reduction of a TR through a carabiner-style anchor to be around 34% or so. It works out to something like this; the numbers are a little big but you get the idea:

Toprope pulley effects
Toprope pulley effects


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By Tim C
From Lakewood, CO
Aug 17, 2010
Grahh! There be a human in my Throne!

How about using a steel quick link at one end and a crab at the other end of a dog bone?


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By JonathanC
From CO
Aug 17, 2010

You could try any variety of gym draws...or at least a biner off of one...
www.dmmclimbing.com/productsDetails.asp?pid=13&pid2=155


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Aug 17, 2010
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

Bring two of their draws or make them lead. If they can't get a TR all the time you will be amazed how fast their leading improves.


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By Forestvonsinkafinger
From Iowa
Aug 17, 2010

A while back, I heard or read that it is bad ethic to TR from sport anchors. As A guide, I have done this a fair amount for newbies (Using our draws of course). Is it bad ethic?


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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Aug 17, 2010
OMG, I winz!!!

Not using your own draws.


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By slim
Administrator
Aug 18, 2010
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

daryl,

thanks for the link. the results are consistent with the '30% rule of thumb' that has been thrown around historically.


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By J tot
From Tempe, AZ
Aug 18, 2010
zen

Thanks for the help and suggestions.

...even if some where kind of non sequiturs...

Tim C wrote:
How about using a steel quick link at one end and a crab at the other end of a dog bone?


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By Brian in SLC
Aug 18, 2010
Climbing in Smuggler's Notch

slim wrote:
brian, the friction at the top of a toprope setup is essential for providing the ability to counteract the load.


True. If you had a fair weight difference, the belayer may struggle a bit, to be sure. Anchoring would make sense.

Good call.


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By Cota
From Bend OR
Aug 19, 2010

Forestvonsinkafinger wrote:
A while back, I heard or read that it is bad ethic to TR from sport anchors. As A guide, I have done this a fair amount for newbies (Using our draws of course). Is it bad ethic?

He really just asked this question and said "as a GUIDE"? Scary


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By Evan1984
Aug 19, 2010

I think the best solution for you is nabbing a couple of THEIR draws.

I think that the second best solution is just sucking up the fact that you'll be buying 2 new biners every however often. Even in institutional settings, aluminum biners can last a couple years. FWIW, Petzl Atache biners(the old yellow ones) seem to wear faster than most.

I simply don't see the need for steel biner. But, if you are TR'ing enough to warrant the extra weight, I'd get a shear reduction device. The real savings will be in increased rope life, which steel biners won't do.
Plus, SRD's still offer some friction.


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By Forestvonsinkafinger
From Iowa
Aug 19, 2010

Cota wrote:
He really just asked this question and said "as a GUIDE"? Scary


Allow me to clarify, I guide climbing trips for a University, we take 10 or so students at a time to crags for single pitch top roping and sport climbing. I once heard that it is a better ethic to set up a top rope on gear/trees when having rookies (who fall a lot on TR) on the line. Thus extending the life of the anchors, though very time consuming. Looking for opinions (I feel that using our own draws is fine, and that TR falls only weight the anchor, and as not a shock load are hardly detrimental).

There are no certifications for guiding I hold beyond WFR and a BA in ORec and all other guiding I have done has been for hikes and backpacks.


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