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By Patrick Feeney
From hartland vt
Sep 23, 2011

im mostly a top roper,and for awhile i have been using webbing to build my anchors.well i was able to get some sterling static rope for cheap and im curious the best method of connecting the two ends,i did try to use the water knot and was told by a climber that its not very safe since its 10mm static rope and i wouldnt hold together(if this is wrong please tell me).so i was thinking about the idea of taking the ends and making figure eight tie in knots on both ends and conntect with a locking biner(im sure a lot of you are looking at what i just wrote and are thinking whats wrong with this guy).i dont plan on taking the knots out that much so i thought that this might work.i was told that a double fishersman knot would work but not for load bearing(which i dont believe,thanks local climbing shop if its wrong),any help would be great and any pics of anchors wih static line would be great to look at .thanks guys.happy climbing


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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Sep 23, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

Just connecting two ends of a single piece of rope? I'm kinda confused what you're asking. But if that's the case, double fisherman's or triple fisherman's. It's the best knot for the job IMO


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By Patrick Feeney
From hartland vt
Sep 23, 2011

yeah.such as when you wrap trees to make a anchor im curious whats the best way to connect the static rope together.ive tried the fishermans and find that the static is SUPER stiff and cant get a nice knot out of it.any other ideas?


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By Patrick Feeney
From hartland vt
Sep 23, 2011

i guess i will try to get the fishermans knot right.maybe the rope just needs to be broke in ,just got it the other day.thanks guys.anyone else that wants to ring in on this topic feel free as i am still think of myself as a new climber and would love to hear about different ways to do things.


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By Evan Sanders
From Westminster, CO
Sep 23, 2011
Flaming Pumpkin

Patrick Feeney wrote:
yeah.such as when you wrap trees to make a anchor im curious whats the best way to connect the static rope together.ive tried the fishermans and find that the static is SUPER stiff and cant get a nice knot out of it.any other ideas?


If it's too stiff (which most ropes aren't, but i'll take your word for it) you can try just tying a knot around the tree (or other protection point) with a figure eight on a follow through (same thing you use to tie yourself into your harness) or a bowline with a stopper knot. When using a bowline a stopper knot is absolutely essential. I use a single fisherman's for a stopper knot if i ever use a bowline (ahem...rarely. But it has its uses) Then on the other end of the line you have another figure eight or whatever you choose to use.


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By Patrick Feeney
From hartland vt
Sep 23, 2011

great thank you very much.i have two figure 8's tied in both ends as of right now.thanks


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By fat cow
From Salinas, CA
Sep 23, 2011
perfect seam

fishermans is good but like you said hard to untie after weighted. a better knot is a figure eight follow through. tie a figure eight on one end and follow it through starting where the tail end is sticking out so that when your done the ends of the rope are on opposite sides. if the tail ends are on the same side you've done it wrong and its a dangerous knot. easier to untie for sure, only takes a few seconds longer


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By Evan1984
Sep 23, 2011

Static rope for TR anchors are excellent.

If you want to join the ends together, a double fisherman's if my choice. The rope is not too stiff, you just

But...with a static, you shouldn't really need to join the ends for building anchors too often.

If you need to attach to a tree/rock etc, just use a bowline backed up with a fisherman's.

If you need to clip into a piece, use a figure eight on a bight.


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By Gunkiemike
Sep 23, 2011

Evan Horvath aka Evan1984 wrote:
But...with a static, you shouldn't really need to join the ends for building anchors too often. If you need to attach to a tree/rock etc, just use a bowline backed up with a fisherman's. If you need to clip into a piece, use a figure eight on a bight.


+1


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By Yarp
Sep 23, 2011

If you don't know how to tie two ends of a rope together I would suggest the best thing you could do is pick up any book on climbing and take a peek at the "knots" section.

Whats with all you dorks trying to explain to this total stranger how to tie a VERY SIMPLE knot over the inturdtubes?

He's using a water knot to join rope ends and not a single one of you has suggested that he should find someone else that knows how to climb, at least a little bit, and simply pay attention to what they do.

WTF is wrong with you guys? Every couple weeks another "should I force my opinions on someone else at the crag" thread comes up and most of you d-bags are droning on about how safe you are because of your triple-redundant-back up-prussik-aider-daisy-nuclear-bomb-sweet ass rope management systems, yet no one has yet told this young lad that perhaps he's going to kill himself if he keeps tying very simple, basic and often used knots incorrectly.

Not that a water knot is going to fail him in this situation but it is most certainly not the first choice for what he is trying to do.

Before you go climbing again, get a book, like Freedom of the Hills or really any basic text available that discusses basic climbing knots and their uses. The information in that book is much more likely to be of value to you in your quest for the proper knot to use, when joining two rope ends, than is the yammering of some attention starved, over caffeinated and, most likely, highly medicated chronic web whore, such as myself, on mountain project.


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By Tim Hudgel
Sep 23, 2011

Yarp speaks the truth.


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By Buff Johnson
Sep 23, 2011
smiley face

So does Brian the dog on Family Guy, but I'm still not going to let him hump my leg


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By Patrick Feeney
From hartland vt
Sep 25, 2011

Thank you to the people who DID help me out.and to those others just go F yourself,all I was doing was looking for help on a website that happens to have some of the best climbers on it,I was no looking for people like yarp to come on and run there mouth.thanks all that helped.and yarp I do have knot tieing know how,I just wasn't too sure on this rope.go F yourslef


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By DannyUncanny
From Vancouver
Sep 25, 2011

What is so dangerously unsafe about using a water knot with static rope? As far as I know, it is just as strong as most other bends.


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By Robert Buswold
From Longmont, CO
Sep 25, 2011
Clear Creek Canyon, Capitalist Crag

I personally just use the double fishermen's knot, but you could use the Euro-Death Knot if you want something with a flat side that would have a better chance of running over a rock edge without getting stuck. Supposedly the EDK is safe (although with a scary-ass name). Legend has it that it's just called the Euro-Death Knot because American's were initially afraid to use it because it seems like it would come undone. However, it's apparently just as safe as the double fishermen's.


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By Robert Buswold
From Longmont, CO
Sep 25, 2011
Clear Creek Canyon, Capitalist Crag

Oh, and welcome to MP, you'll notice that Yarp has nothing better to do than make wise-ass comments that do nothing to further the discussion in a positive manner. Mostly we just ignore him/her.


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By Robert Cort
Sep 25, 2011

Robert Buswold wrote:
However, it's apparently just as safe as the double fishermen's.


Ummm...this is really not true. The EDK (also known as an overhand bend), if not properly tied, and tightened, can roll. While the result of the roll is the same knot, after each roll, the tails are shorter. Once the tails are gone, the knot has failed catastrophically. An EDK has it's place, and I use it frequently, but for static line use in an anchor where you will not be pulling the ropes, and therefore are not worried about the rope getting stuck, the EDK isn't the best choice. Use the double fisheman's. Obviously, depending on your anchor setup, there are other choices, but if you just want a loop of rope, double fisherman's is the best choice.

By the way, the water knot (ring bend) is not a good choice for rope. Under cycling loading, the water knot gradually eats the tails of webbing, this failure mode also occurs when it's used in rope or cord, but at a slightly faster rate. In the stiff static rope you described, it's likely the worst it can be. Even when used in webbing, you must make sure you have adequate tails, and re-check any permanently tied water knots frequently to be sure the tails are still long enough. Good rule of thumb is if you don't think your tails are long enough in a water knot, tie backup knots (note if your tails are not long enough, you won't have enough to tie the backup knot---it's win-win)


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By DannyUncanny
From Vancouver
Sep 25, 2011

Robert Buswold wrote:
I personally just use the double fishermen's knot, but you could use the Euro-Death Knot if you want something with a flat side that would have a better chance of running over a rock edge without getting stuck. Supposedly the EDK is safe (although with a scary-ass name). Legend has it that it's just called the Euro-Death Knot because American's were initially afraid to use it because it seems like it would come undone. However, it's apparently just as safe as the double fishermen's.


Now here is something that should be called out for being really bad advice.


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By Dill
From Strum, WI
Sep 25, 2011

go to www.totalclimbing.com there is a very good instructional video on setting up a top rope anchor with a static rope. It is worth watching. A static rope works very good for setting up top rope anchors.


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By J.Roatch
From Twisp, WA
Sep 25, 2011
In my hammock camping in Washington in the Okinawa county region

Hey all,

So first I would say that I agree with most comments on here, especially that a book would be very helpful. The one I'm most familiar with is called Climbing Anchors by John Long. John is a great author and has a lot of helpful texts. I'm sure you could find it in pdf on the web as well for no price, but I would recommend it.

The water note, from what I remember, should only be used on flat "ropes" like webbing. It is not as sturdy on circular rope and so should not be used.

There are many different ways to tie an anchor, some are more simple than others. When making an anchor it is good to be safe-redundant but also quick. To be both of these you should practice-which you are doing-and you also need to be well informed (beyond your good question about static ropes). So I think some more studying is an order. Take a peak through John Longs book, he also has a sequel-More Climbing Anchors. If you live in Northern Minnesota I would be happy to borrow you a copy. Very good read.

Jonathan


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By J.Roatch
From Twisp, WA
Sep 25, 2011
In my hammock camping in Washington in the Okinawa county region

euro-death knot- www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html


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By Buff Johnson
Sep 25, 2011
smiley face

Robert Cort wrote:
The EDK (also known as an overhand bend), if not properly tied, and tightened, can roll.


If properly tied, dressed, & set, it will still roll with enough force on it. Rapping just doesn't put that much on the knot to be an issue. If not properly tied, it will just fall apart.

I wouldn't go with a flat overhand for TR'ing due to cyclical loads. Even if you went with a tensionless setup, there are better knots to use.

More to the OP, If you don't like the double fisherman's, as another choice you could go with a double sheet bend.


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By J.Roatch
From Twisp, WA
Sep 25, 2011
In my hammock camping in Washington in the Okinawa county region

Mark Nelson wrote:
If properly tied, dressed, & set, it will still roll with enough force on it. Rapping just doesn't put that much on the knot to be an issue. If not properly tied, it will just fall apart. I wouldn't go with a flat overhand with a static for TR'ing due to cyclical loads. Even if you went with a tensionless setup, there are better knots to use. If you don't like the double fisherman's, go with a double sheet bend.


Yeah, I would not use it for anchor set-up, only rappelling as that all the tests I've found are only done on that.


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By Robert Buswold
From Longmont, CO
Sep 25, 2011
Clear Creek Canyon, Capitalist Crag

Robert Cort wrote:
Ummm...this is really not true. The EDK (also known as an overhand bend), if not properly tied, and tightened, can roll. While the result of the roll is the same knot, after each roll, the tails are shorter. Once the tails are gone, the knot has failed catastrophically. An EDK has it's place, and I use it frequently, but for static line use in an anchor where you will not be pulling the ropes, and therefore are not worried about the rope getting stuck, the EDK isn't the best choice. Use the double fisheman's. Obviously, depending on your anchor setup, there are other choices, but if you just want a loop of rope, double fisherman's is the best choice. By the way, the water knot (ring bend) is not a good choice for rope. Under cycling loading, the water knot gradually eats the tails of webbing, this failure mode also occurs when it's used in rope or cord, but at a slightly faster rate. In the stiff static rope you described, it's likely the worst it can be. Even when used in webbing, you must make sure you have adequate tails, and re-check any permanently tied water knots frequently to be sure the tails are still long enough. Good rule of thumb is if you don't think your tails are long enough in a water knot, tie backup knots (note if your tails are not long enough, you won't have enough to tie the backup knot---it's win-win)



Sorry, I got carried away and started thinking about rappel situations where the EDK wouldn't be much of an issue... however during top-rope where there is the chance of dynamic loading of the rope, it's obviously not a good idea. However, I don't even think a static rope should be use for any climbing situation period... even toproping a static line is a bad idea, because there still can be those lapses of judgement where there might be a foot or two of slack when your climber falls and puts HUGE stress on the rope (not to mention his/her back).


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By Buff Johnson
Sep 25, 2011
smiley face

There isn't that much to a climber's TR fall on a static rope as far as stress to the system, the rope, or the climber. They still have some give to them, and the rope is stronger than anything a climber on TR is going to put on it. Unless it's made by some retard selling to a hardware store.


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By Woodchuck ATC
Sep 25, 2011
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

I second the motion for you to get climbing instruction, read books, practice knots and do all this for some time LONG before you venture out to the cliffs again to set up a questionable rope anchor. I commend you for checking in here at MP for advice, but do hope you learn much more and practice it at safe ground level before trying it out on someone while climbing.


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