The reason why I'm posting this here is I think this is a Sandstone question, and not so much a big wall, or Sport question.

What size bit and what size Angle Piton work best in soft rock? I've only lived in this sandy country for a year, and I'm looking to develop a few trad lines. Before you go off about ethics, know that I'm a less is more kind of guy. Each placement will be considered and placed with a hand drill. (Hand drilling gives plenty of time to think if its really needed or not.)
Why not put in a bolt? According to Ron Olevski in his clean walls DVD he "noticed that the hand drilled holes tend to flare at the front. Why not use something that already has a built in taper to it. A piton. So I refined my technique and feel that its better for the rock in the long term."
I think I'll use epoxy on each DA as well. The nice thing about glue is, it adheres on a molecular level.
Kevin

Hey Kevin
Thanks for putting this on there. I'm gonna briefly give you the other side.
I disagree with Rons assessment for a whole bunch of reasons that have been talked about on these forums for a while.
1. BD Angle pitons are not treated and will rust. I do a lot of replacement work around Moab and the angles have a huge variation in their holding power. Some are pretty bomber, while others pop out on two taps of the hammer. When the latter happens, its usually rust that was holding them in. They ring until they pop out.
2. Angles are not designed for repeated falls. BD says this themselves. The fact is that angles break much faster than bolts and hangers. You see cracked angles all over the world, but really only see cracked bolt hangers on the coasts.
3. Even a perfectly placed angle in a perfect hole does not have the pull -out of a half inch 5 piece bolt. Ever.
4. The contact edges of the piton are much smaller than the total contact area of the cone on the bolt. This means the piton is putting more force on a limited space and thus weakening the matrix of the rock in that area much faster.
5. When a five piece is tightened up the cone makes space in the hole by compacting the rock. THis then forms a non tapered point in even a bad hole.

There are a lot more reasons, but the essence is that despite the tapering and angle of the hole, a half inch 5 piece bolt is just stronger than a drilled angle and will last much longer. Ron drills very good angle placements, but in the end the placement cant be better than the initial material, and pitons are an inferior material.

Thanks for posting this. We all do as we want in this sport. My belief is that we should not drill holes to place inferior materials... but I know that I have never convinced Ron of this.

Sam

Sam, I'm on your side on this one. I can't imagine a reason to put in a DA. It takes a lot longer to drill and it seems there's an art to doing it well. In the end it's a little weaker shear and tremendously weak pull out. That's if it's done right.

I drill 1/2" x 4" when I replace anchors or do an FA, even if the start of the hole is flared (which it barely is) once you're in maybe a half inch, the hole itself holds the bit stable. The further you drill, the more stable the bit. By the time you get to the part the sleeve expands to, it's really round. I'd imagine the roundness of the back of the hole is the same hand drilled or power drilled.

One thing I personally have not experienced but have been told about is the spinning bolt issue. Apparently you can turn and turn and it never tightens because the sand is acting like ball bearings. The Fixe or Redhead style bolt (flare in the back, nut on the outside of the rock) are rumored to be less prone to this than the rawl/powers. Certainly the larger diameters of any brand have more friction and are also less prone to spinning. Sam and others, what is your take on that whole/hole hullaballoo?

I don't think glue is too necessary, I used it once on soft rock to waterproof the hole, but I wasn't relying on it to add holding power. I should have used a glue in but I wanted to finish in a single day.

John....I have run into the spinning bolt phenomenon a few times and have figured out a sure fire way to avoid it. I usually use 5"x1/2" bolts for anchors on FAs. They spin less often than 3/8 bolts, but they still do if you're not careful. They key is a really clean hole, PLUS you should tighten the bolt by hand as you tap it in. I tap in in a 1/2 inch or so and tighten by hand...repeat till the bolt is in and seated. You won't have the spin that way.

Regarding the rounding on the edge of the hole, I agree with you that it's a marginal factor when you're using a long enough bolt. I normally use an electric drill...an there is sometimes a little wiggle when you get going, but it's straight for a long ways. I feel great about the placements. I do think adding a little glue on the outside should help, as that will help keep water out of the rounded part.

Just a few thoughts...from my limited experience (maybe 20 FAs or so).