Everywhere you go is crowded, especially if it is a world class climbing area like the Creek. The last time I was at the creek people were everywhere, dogs running wild, people camped at the base of cat wall etc.... I still had a rad time and hope to get back soon.

John, at least you are doing your part as far as MP is concerned. You have added routes for IC with dogshiit descriptions into the route database.... wait.... ain't the ROUTE DATABASE a GUIDEBOOK????? . Were those a smoke screen or are you just a hypocrite? You could have received close to $30 and a BJ from SharpEnd for those.

Err you mean DullEnd.

You got me Russ.

2 of the 3 routes I added was to update status on formerly mank anchors. The third just happened to be right next to it. All are already in the guide. Any FA's I've done there are not in database and they won't be.

What's funny is you trashing me on one site and being friendly on another. I'm not going to join your offwidth site, there's nothing to add, too niche. Sorry I didn't get any photo's of me on Jaws either.

As far as descriptions go, a guide shouldn't offer any more than how to get to the climb and how to get down. David, read that sentence again. No matter what I say I know you'll still go through with your book. You are wrong on gear descriptions more than you're right, I'm not the only one who has experienced this.

Just step back mkay? Seriously, I think your name would get trashed a lot less if your descriptions read more like this.

Blooms Crack 11+
35M
The third route to the left of the approach trail (tree, rock, VW, whatever).

That's it. You didn't tell anyone anything you didn't know.

Oh, and put someone else's photo in the book too.

Sorry John, but I'm not trashing you. I'm seeing a lashing coming out of your keyboard toward Bloom, that I think is misdirected. It don't mean I won't still give you a reach around. You want a trashing, just call that one dude "Bobby" again.

Too bad about the other site. It seemed you had something to offer in that "niche".

John...instead of trashing David's effort...write one (guidebooks) of your own.


Can't wait to see your effort.

Russ, I find that too much interaction with too many 5.12 OW climbers on a regular basis makes me a little nutty. OK, really nutty. As much as I probably belong over there, I'll opt out for sanity reasons.

Bob, do you think Sharp End would publish my book. Here it is in it's entirety.

"Welcome to Indian Creek. Don't fuck it up"

I'd need a lot of high gloss photo's for filler as I bet Sharp End likes to have a 2 page minimum to call it a book.

John wrote: "Welcome to Indian Creek. Don't fuck it up"

I'd need a lot of high gloss photo's for filler as I bet Sharp End likes to have a 2 page minimum to call it a book.



Actually thats more than I expected out of you. It's always easier to tell someone how to do something than it to do it yourself.

Later, Bob

How much will version-2 cost..?

Here's an idea: How about, no color photos, no extra BS, price the book at $10 and make the beta right instead of wasting time effort and money on making another coffee table book. Stop the greed. Let us spend our money on cams, anchors, or donations to groups trying to keep the Creek from getting (further) trashed.

this is what I am saying: build a book that doesn't fall apart when you take it climbing. Remember the SEWN binding????

Fellas, fellas; what the place needs is sandstone nudes & more cowbell.

George wrote: Stop the greed.

Thats funny...have you ever wrote or published a guidebook??

Clearly a black-and-white guidebook could be made at a lower cost, have a lower sticker price, and be just as useful.

Like this one, for example:
http://www.amazon.com/Rock-Climbing-Colorados-Luis-Valley/dp>>>>>

I'm not suggesting that anyone writing a book is getting rich or even breaking even in terms of their time.

If only there was some way to create something like an online guidebook that people could download for free. Maybe it could still even have pictures, too. That would be a cool project.

James wrote: If only there was some way to create something like an online guidebook that people could download it for free, and maybe still even have pictures, too. That would be a cool project.


George I was just going to post how cheap climbers are when it comes to buying guidebooks but James beat me to the punch.

Hope all is well in New Mexico...I really miss it.

Later, Bob

Oh good. I get to rant about the "spitter" camps again. Mr Bloom was honest about his intention to profit and bring more to the Creek.It's obvious that if you write a guide book you are hoping that people buy and use it. The splitter camp folks use hypocritcal rhetoric to say they are preserving the creek but in reality developed,promote and institutionized the "Crag Domination" theory. One leader, many topropes, I got here first and you can toprope it "maybe" if my paying clients are cool with it. Let's just get it over with and turn the place into a area with parking lot camping , tee times, and rangers to keep everyone in line.
I am just grateful that I can feast on my memories of days gone by. They are mine for keeps.

My complaint with the Indian creek guide is that it does nothing to educate people about the desert, while it does everything to promote the notoriety of it's author; david bloom. The route descriptions are shit. The gear descriptions are shit. Most of the listed climbs have a ? after the name and grade. All of the harder climbs that are of 2 friend or red camalot are downgraded. Which happens to be blooms forte. and everything he can't do is upgraded. Who has the rite to change the grade of a route done by Hong? If bloom spent more time climbing the routes in his guide, than offering to scrape everyone's pipes, then this book might be something that everyone would support. Not many are on board with this though, and for good reason. Everyone used to get along fine with the plaques as the guide and curiosity as the avenue. Things really changed when the dirtbag camps at the Bridger Jack took on an image that everyone had to follow. This is where blooms original quest to fame began and where the real problems there today were born.

bloom should exercise his rite to try to scrape a living in some meager way, all is lost now anyway. Rangers and Pay Stations are the only way to clean everything up at this point. Although bloom does deserve all the shit he gets for this. And I know I deserve some to for trolling.

If I ever see that John Wolf guy or Roper around here they are going to hear it. Vogel too! ALL THESE CLIMBERS ARE RUINING CLIMBING.

Do not stop
Lets burn them all at the stake for we are the chosen ones

So many to burn and so little time

Wiltz
Williams
Lovejoy
Rosecrans
Green
Myers
Hubble
Kelman
Rossiter
Ament
Gillet
Vogel burn him twice for Jtree
Clevenger for ever keeping written descriptions in a loose leaf note book
Nelson
Bob D�Antonio
Bartlett

Disclaimer
I stole all the books above so the authors did not profit.
I also asked that Bloom focker to sell me a book but he did not have any. I was going to steal from him too just trying to see where he kept the books.


Then let�s go after the gear whores

How could they profit from there sweat blood and tears?
Chouniard
Lowe
Leeper
Forrest
Frost
Frog
And that Fish guy
I say F them all


This list is to short
River Guide Authors
How about Lewis and Clarke if only they were still alive

Then lets get the guys that promote the sport or sell any product regarding how to!
Large order you say?
How about climbers doing first accents?
Problem solved

Wow! I walk away from the computer for 4 days and I come back to this. I thought the 1st rule on MP was Don't be a jerk. Obviously this Langston guy can't read. I also found it interesting that nobody really offered up anything constructive. For those of you that don't like photos of yours truly, please submit high quality photos of yourself or your friends on any route that is on the non-popular crags. We'd love to see them. For all of you complainers, I have been visiting the Creek since 1983 and I've had fun every single day I've ever been there. You people should get a life. Hi Russ and Sooze! See you all later. I'm going back to Supertopo. The folks over there are a lot nicer. The Dr.

Doc,

Hey. Thanks for the guidebook. I have been climbing there since 1991 (Ouch suckas, beat that!). In addition, I have put up about 30 decent routes (and a few useless ones) and replaced about 20 anchors with new bolts and hardware. That book showed me a few new places to go even after all those years. My only complaint is the size, without the photos and essays (which all kinda say the same thing- climbing good, desert spiritual, beer good), it would be a lot more user friendly.

My good friend Marco Cornachione published the first guidebook to the area and he got a bunch of shit for it, too. Mostly barked by people as they sat there paging through the book at the base of a wall and probably gearing up for a route he put up!

As far as the book ruining the creek. That is crap. Every area in the world has a guidebook, some get popular and some don't.

There are still plenty of undocumented walls in the creek: developed and undeveloped. IF somebody is expecting Supercrack to be uncrowded on a nice day, he is naive.

Finally, the most proactive thing somebody can personally do to reduce the crowds and impact at the creek is to stay home. One less person means one less in the crowd, regardless of when you started climbing there and how many routes and how hard. As soon as you get out of your car, you lose the right to complain about any crowds. It is enormously hypocritical to walk up to a group at the base of any climb and then mutter about the crowds. In fact, if you visit other crags (w/ the guidebook in hand, no doubt), but expect nobody to come to "your" cliff, you are also a hypocrite.

This applies to Moab locals as well. 90% of the routes (99.9% of the classics) in Indian Creek were there long before the Moab climbing scene was more than a couple crusty dudes like Copeland and Bjornstadt. Just 'cause somebody moved there last year to get a job wiping tourist ass on the whiterim doesn't give him creek ownership. My favorite part is that nearly everyone living in Moab has a hand in the tourist or outdoor industry - which is what will destroy the desert far more quickly and thoroughly than a couple hundred climbers in the creek.

However, I will say hats off to the people in Moab and elsewhere who are proactive with the BLM and Redds about access.

Lose the essays in the book and print a bunch more info about that.

I look forward to the new book, actually. And all the naysayers on this post will eventually page through it for a bit of info, even if they don't buy it, as they have the first edition or old book. Hopefully, they will choke on the irony.

By the way, doc, all the info I care to share about new routes is on Mountainproject. Email if you need clarification.

Getting rained indoors in Joe's single wide is always the highlight of my Moab experience.

Sorry for the assholes on mp.com Doctor. Its not as enoyable to post on as the supertopo forum, but the Indian Creek section is first rate for route beta.

Speaking fo choking on irony (cough cough), I am going to be a Moab local for a couple months after new years, but my plates will still be green! Anybody want to rent me a leaky doublewide?

Hey Joe,Andrew, Chris. Thanks for talking some sense, and thanks for your work on this database. Chris, as far as the essays go, that was the Sharp End's idea and I personally only saw two of them before the book went to press, those being Micah's and Timmy's. We'll try and lose some of them and maybe get a few new ones instead that say something different. See you on the rocks, Doc

I actually liked the essays :)