Smaller cams to compliment X4s - TCUs or C3s place differently?

I live in Seattle and climb mostly at Leavenworth, Squamish, and Washington Pass.

I'm building a rack all at once for personal reasons, here's what I have so far:

BD 4-13 Nuts
1x X4 .4
1x X4 .5
2x X4 .75
2x C4 1
2x C4 2
1x C4 3

The rack that I was using before (and have led with more) is different in these ways:
.4, .5, .75 are C4 not X4, same quantities
Also has yellow, orange, red TCUs
no smaller cams

I decided to go with 2 .75 X4s instead of an X4 and a C4 because I don't think the placements would be different enough to justify making a decision between the two of them while placing.

For the .4 and .5, I feel like I will need more coverage, so I could double those, or get TCUs, or C3s in the same range if they will really fit in meaningfully different places. For me C3s are cheaper than TCUs. I may also pick up .3 and .2 X4s.

What do you guys and gals think would be best for "doubling" the X4 in .4, .5, and even smaller range? Thanks in advance!

Consider the C-4 has a wider head that adds some stability.
So instead of doubling up the X-4's
C-4's #.75, #.5, #.4 ?
I use the 3 largest C-3's for lead climbing #2,#1,#0
In the x-4's #.75, #.5, #.4, #.3

#.75 and up looks perfect to me.

Thanks for the feedback, Craig.

Do you find that the larger C3s fit in places where the X4s don't?

I can imagine that the C4 might have a more bomber feeling placement in a splitter due to the wide head stability that you mentioned, but the X4 would probably still work and since they have the same range I'm not convinced it's worth thinking about "Do I want a C4 or X4 here?" and/or trying the other when one doesn't work. If I already had C4s in those sizes, I certainly wouldn't replace them with double X4s, but since I'm starting from scratch I'm having a hard time visualizing the situations where a C4 would meaningfully work better than an X4.

c4's walk less. had an x4 .5 walk almost out of reach with a 2 ft. runner on a straight pitch. c4's are also stronger, and have wider lobes so will hold better in soft rock. x4's are lighter though. c3's are awesome and will fit in alot of places 4 lobed cams wont because of their super narrow head width

Aliens duh

Aliens are exceptional, but in my opinion, I would consider the rock you climb. A set of aliens and x4s, tcus, masters or c3s(which minus a size or two, i'm not a big fan of although i've used them plenty. Aliens are signifcantly softer as far as lobes go, which i have found and find are the best for some rock while 'harder' lobes better for other rock. Aliens wear faster, but unimportant to catch a fall. i personally use c4s most often down to a .4 plus or minus 1. As mentioned above, bomber stability but the head with doesn't fit sometimes. At some point, i'm thinking you'll want/need a 4 and 5 and perhaps 6 c4 or dmm equivalent at some point. i would seriously consider the rock you climb most often when thinking about small gear though. don't forget the nuts, though. bds are are a great deal and fine nuts. all nuts are more similar than other, imo. sometime, though, i image you'll find hb/dmm offsets are the best in so many places. they are truly in a class of their own. i'm admittedly a big fan of passive gear. i would recommend picking up some some smaller nuts at some point. but that's me...

Also consider going for a set of offsets, before doubling up.

I haven't used the new x-4 offsets YET, but love the offset Aliens. The granite in Squamish should just eat them up. Some use their offsets more than their standards. Metolius and Alien both have great offset offerings. If you want the X-4's you'll need to hit up Gear Express, being the only place they been listed in stock. Saving $$$ for them now ;)

C-3's smaller head fits in a few pin scars that Aliens won't. The C-3 stem isn't as flexible as a comparable Alien type. Better or worse? I can't speak for how they compare to the U-stem units like the power cams, to which I have rather limited experience.

Another vote for offset aliens they work miracles. Perfect rack tcus micro/fingers, c4 .5 to 4+, black to orange aliens, few offset finger/tight hands aliens!

I have only used BDs (C3s, C4s, and X4x) and the DMM Dragons, so I can't speak to the others. That said, in terms of BD, I think you want to start with a full rack of C3s and C4s. As others have said, the C3s will fit a lot of places the 4-lobers (even X4s) won't. Likewise, nothing beats a C4 in terms of stability. I'm willing to take much bigger risks above my small C4s vs the same size X4s.

Given that you already have some X4s, I would recommend doubling up using exclusively C3s and C4s.

I also highly recommend the Dragons, btw. They are color-matched to the C4s and, IMO, just as stable. The extendable dyneema sling is a nifty option, too, that generally allows me to carry less slings.

Pink and red tricams! They cover that range and diversify your rack

Stephen Ackley wrote:Pink and red tricams! They cover that range and diversify your rack

I second that, plus the new evo models are a little more stiff and tapered, allowing even more opportunities for placements. Lightweight too.

Thanks for the feedback guys, great insight.

Climbing with what I had over the weekend and a friend's 00-2 TCUs I realized that I do want some smaller than .4 cams so I decided to add the .1, .2, .3 X4s. Time will tell if I will be left longing for TCUs or C3s.

I was lucky/persistent enough to booty a .5 C4 over the weekend to double with the .5 X4 that I had. I also decided to swap my second .75 X4 for a .75 C4 - the .75 C4 has been such a good piece for me in the past, I don't want to be without it. I think my point about not making a decision between the two might be silly - we make a bunch of little decisions every time we place any gear.

Still thinking on the tricam evos!

I'm an unbiased fan of tricams, but I also don't climb that hard.

Whether or not you can place them in tough stances is debatable. But they do fill the rack out, they allow you to save cams for the tough stances, they also make great bail gear. You can often find them on sale for $15 (pink, red, brown).

So while they might not ever be your go to gear, they are worth adding to the rack to supplement your cams, and with how little they weight, they aren't going to drag you down...espeically if you are already carrying doubles of most of your cams, they tricam weight is almost insignificant.

In the small cams, it's a really good idea to have a couple of different manufacturers, as small differences in size make a huge difference in how well they hold. I'd start with a single set of x4s in the small sizes, and a second set of totem basics.

I would use Wild Country for extras.

Personally, I really like the yellow, orange and red Metolius sizes, whether Master cams or TCUs, as they slot really nicely in between the BD .3, .4, .5, and .75. I personally use MasterCams in those sizes to complement my BDs, but if I had to do it over again, I might've opted for TCUs.

AndySkol wrote:Thanks for the feedback, Craig. Do you find that the larger C3s fit in places where the X4s don't? I can imagine that the C4 might have a more bomber feeling placement in a splitter due to the wide head stability that you mentioned, but the X4 would probably still work and since they have the same range I'm not convinced it's worth thinking about "Do I want a C4 or X4 here?" and/or trying the other when one doesn't work. If I already had C4s in those sizes, I certainly wouldn't replace them with double X4s, but since I'm starting from scratch I'm having a hard time visualizing the situations where a C4 would meaningfully work better than an X4.

The C3s don't work super well in our slightly irregular granite cracks. For our area, I'd definitely recommend the Totem Basics, or Fixe Aliens.

MorganH wrote: The C3s don't work super well in our slightly irregular granite cracks. For our area, I'd definitely recommend the Totem Basics, or Fixe Aliens.

That's exactly the kind of feedback I need, Morgan. Is it because they are 3-cams, or too narrow, or what? I think I need doubles for my .3 and .4 X4. I am leaning toward a .4 C4 but in the .3 I was thinking C3 ... I may want to rethink that.

If you want something that "fits differently" for your second set, look at offsets. I just got offset Mastercams a month ago, and I'm wondering what took me so long. Especially the smallest four sizes. Even when I just need a second piece in a given size, there's generally a spot for the offset that's just as good as the spot where I would put a regular cam. Maybe if your local rock tends towards real splitters you'd rather have doubles of regular, but the rock I climb (New England granite, gneiss, Gunks) has a lot of irregularity, slight flares, etc.

AndySkol wrote: That's exactly the kind of feedback I need, Morgan. Is it because they are 3-cams, or too narrow, or what? I think I need doubles for my .3 and .4 X4. I am leaning toward a .4 C4 but in the .3 I was thinking C3 ... I may want to rethink that.

The .4 C4's head width is too wide. The thickness of the stem on the C3 forces them into a horizontal alignment a lot of the time, which can bend/break the little stems. I've witnessed it on a couple of different climbs. The totem basics are slightly different sizes than the BD cams, which are all basically the same, and have the softer lobes, which really bite well into granite.

Having climbed a fair amount in the PNW (lived there for 6 years) I can say without hesitation to

100% SKIP any TriCams. Index, Leavenworth, Squam etc all tend to vertical crack climbing and in all my years climbing routes there the Tricams just gathered dust.

Index, Squamish and many other granite areas seem to like offsets. Index (and L'worth) tend to have a fair number of pin scars and Squam has a lot of flakes etc that eat up offsets. Looking at your rack you look light on the smaller stuff.

I'd finish off your X4s with a .3 .2 and then a .1/.2 X$ Offset

Then get the full run of Totem Basics (reg AND offsets)

Blue, B/G, G, G/Y, Y, R

That will cover you nicely and is pretty much the "modern" version of what I ran when climbing there.

Also consider different nuts. BD stoppers are ok but DMM Walnuts and Peanuts along with some Larger offsets will serve you a lot better IMO