"single Hitch Belay Escape"
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climbing.com/skill/single-h…
Any one else see any problems with this set up? "Now What?" Now that the load is transferred from you to the anchor, using the other strand of the climbers clove hitch...now what. You are tied into a closed system with limited avenues of action. the other side of the belay's clove hitch has the incapacitated climbers load, and you have used the climbers strand again with a clove hitch to "back up" the Kliemhiest (sp?). so now you, with limited resources as your rope is in a non-load releasable orientation from both attachments to the anchor have to start several multistage actions to transfer your injured party to a load releasable orientation on the anchor before you can...do anything? You are stuck with this set up;you cant haul, you can't rap, you cant's adjust your position, maybe you can untie and walk off however, odds of that seem low. why not if you can't use a Guide or Reverso just use an Italian hitch to begin with? please correct me if I am wrong, in this case I hope I am just missing the point. I don't see the point of escaping the belay if all that happens afterward is, I am now stuck and lack the ability to fix it. (no gear/know how as the technique shown infers) |
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I agree. I like the idea of using the backside of the clove instead of a full cordalette, but I would to the complete weight shift, i.e munter mule to klemheist to take the load, then munter mule directly off the anchor below your belay. Release the first munter to load the second. Then you can lower if necessary and you aren't leaving your partner hanging on a friction hitch alone. I wouldn't tie someone off to a clove when I wasn't sure if they can unweight it. |
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The first thing I thought of was, why not use a munter+mule to connect the climbers rope to the anchor (fig 3). Then you have the option of lowering, and if they get back on the wall, you can belay them all the way up with it. Also agree with the comment by Richard D to avoid reliance on a non-backed up prussic. |
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the friction hitch is not the issue here. first its backed up but the device then the rope is attached to the anchor. the the divice lowers on the the hitch then the device is removed. with the load attached to the anchor. the issue is the the end result of this technique as shown, is you stranded and in need of a complicated fix because you did not use a munter the fiction hitch to get it out of the system, you did not put the climber on a munter on the anchor, so now they and you are stuck in that orientation until you can do it all again and transfer the load to a load releasable system for the climber. |
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Youd be surprised at the number of climbers who cant munter mule ... Or use a mariners |
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I guess what's nice about it is that you could teach it in two parts. First as the photos show, then For more advanced students, with a munter mule overhand as the last step and a French prusik. |
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Using Munter-Mules rather than the Cloves Hitches at the anchor would have been a much better solution, wouldn't it? |
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Yup. The piece is one of the dumbest things I've seen recently. The premise seems to be, here's how to get out of one pickle into another just as bad, maybe worse, by virtue of not having the skill set required for bare minimal competence. I can't imagine what the author and publisher were thinking. |
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Isn't the idea so that should you have a spare line you can rap down to rescue as well as set up a haul with the line already at the anchor? Removing yourself from the belay opens your options from zero to at least something you could do. Mostly it all boils down to the tools on you (tibloc, prussik). I agree with you that leaving out the munter-mule is stupid. No guide would ever pass their exam with this set up. But I take it Eli Helmuth is one? Who knows. |
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The book, "Self-Rescue" by David Fasulo, describes escaping the belay and providing you with further options quite well. |
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I'm confused as usual. Somebody, and we have two somebodies with significant creds on this post, please straighten me out. |
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If you haven't lowered the second fully onto the clove hitch then yes, you're still good. One you weight and tighten that hitch or any knot for that matter, you're hosed. |
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losbill wrote: Isn't the load of the fallen/incapacitated second on the back rope secured by the friction knot? Isn't the original direct line/belay line now a back up? Don't you have the option of coming back into the system if you wish and as necessary and unweighting the friction knot back rope utilizing body weight through a redirect?In addition to Mark's remark, it is possible that a friction hitch can creep---I've seen it with a dyneema sling and the kleimheist. If that happens and the "backup" clove hitch gets weighted, you are in a lot more trouble than you should be. For example, one of the things you won't be able to do is get back into the system as suggested, because now you have a weighted clove hitch to deal with. Of course there are ways to cope with the situation as it is described, but I still think it is wrong-headed to give folks something to practice that can provide obstacles to timely self-rescue, especially in view of the fact that the Munter Mule is easy to learn and remember. If you don't know the Munter Mule, then you just ain't ready to be in any aspect of the self-rescue business, and considering the dire consequences of self-rescue gone wrong, the safe thing is to understand your limited competence and call for help, rather than trying to institute fragile work-arounds. If you're going to be somewhere where help isn't available, you had better know the Munter Mule and a whole bunch of other stuff to boot. Surely on of the ten commandments of any type of rescue work is "thou shalt not secure a dead weight with anything but a load-releasable hitch." |
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"Rob did you ever read the article written by Jack Roberts'(RIP) rescuer? He only had 1 line, and was unable to do shit. He needed 2 lines to rescue Jack in a pinch and credited this insufficiency to one of the multitude of reason Jack passed if not the main reason he wasn't down in time for the EMT's to help. " |
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rgold wrote: In addition to Mark's remark, it is possible that a friction hitch can creep---I've seen it with a dyneema sling and the kleimheist. If that happens and the "backup" clove hitch gets weighted, you are in a lot more trouble than you should be. For example, one of the things you won't be able to do is get back into the system as suggested, because now you have a weighted clove hitch to deal with. Of course there are ways to cope with the situation as it is described, but I still think it is wrong-headed to give folks something to practice that can provide obstacles to timely self-rescue, especially in view of the fact that the Munter Mule is easy to learn and remember. If you don't know the Munter Mule, then you just ain't ready to be in any aspect of the self-rescue business, and considering the dire consequences of self-rescue gone wrong, the safe thing is to understand your limited competence and call for help, rather than trying to institute fragile work-arounds. If you're going to be somewhere where help isn't available, you had better know the Munter Mule and a whole bunch of other stuff to boot. Surely on of the ten commandments of any type of rescue work is "thou shalt not secure a dead weight with anything but a load-releasable hitch."if you are in a locked off fiction knot situation ... ie youre not using it for ascending or rap safety ... just do more twist around the rope with the kleimheist/hedden at that point it doesnt matter if you do 4-5+ twirls .... you want something that doesnt slip ... you arent going to try to release the friction anyways just tie it so that its attached to the anchor via a MMO or mariners i personally feel that many people who have some knowledge of self rescue have a false sense of confidence except for quite simple situations, theres a very good chance you wont be able to do very much under realistic conditions if its just the two of you free climbing ... try to get down as best as you can because if one partner is incapacitated you sure as hell arent going up how often do people practice this anyways ... most free climbers will be lucky to practice it once or twice a year ... to be quite honest, the best thing you could have other than some basic skills is a clear head and cell phone reception (or SPOT/BPL) ... |
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Jon, thanks for a message from the real world. You had an agonizing situation and did everything you possibly could in the circumstances. In my experience (which is not, thank god, extensive), nothing works out in the textbook way and choices have to be made under pressure, and as you say, what matters is having a broad range of options from which---maybe---an ad hoc strategy can be fashioned. And I agree with BB that, bookloads of fancy systems notwithstanding, there will often to be very little a party of two can realistically do once one person is seriously incapacitated. |
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Guess none of you know the author of the article or his experience...... |
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Jim Amidon wrote:Guess none of you know the author of the article or his experience...... Typical forum spray..........That works both ways. Guess you don´t know the authors of the posts or their experience either so how do you know it´s spray?????? |
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Jim Amidon wrote:Guess none of you know the author of the article or his experience...... Typical forum spray..........I don't know the author but am very familiar with his agonizing story, having read and reread it in detail on the Coldthistle blog. In the part of my reply that referred to that experience, I chose my words with great care, more care, it appears, then you have applied to reading it. "Spray" typically refers to bragging. If that's what you extract from my comments, I'm sorry for both of us. All I did, however, was mention a technique that might work in analogous situations, and that is a statement that is capable of being debated on its merits on a case-by-case basis, rather than dismissed as spray, because the technique is well-known and described in various places (Mark mentioned Fasulo, which is one place it can be found). I might add that having the leader fall past the belay and be incapacitated is a scenario that we all have or may have to deal with. Discussing rational options for what to do seems to me to be of considerable interest to anyone who gets more than a pitch off the ground. So by my lights, this is the opposite of spray; it is unadorned factual information whose relevance can be determined by rational analysis of the situations to which it might apply, and these are situations of considerable interest to the climbing community. I'm truly sorry if you see it differently. |
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rgold wrote:From the comfort of my armchair and without any of the stresses of the daunting reality you faced, I find it possible to hypothesize that an option for situations analogous yours would be to anchor neither rope and instead do a counterweighted rappel on both of them, allowing one to pull and utilize both ropes lower down with no need to go back up and cut anything. Of course, transferring from the tied-off to counterweighted configurations typically uses (and I think requires) a load-releasable knot, as does getting a severely incapacitated climber off anchors during tandem rappelling.We now have two separate topics going on here, which is my fault. The original post is about Eli Helmuth's article in Climbing, the second tangent is about Jack Roberts accident on bridalveil falls. Sorry for what seems to be some confusion. Rgold, unfortunately I couldn't reach the ropes going from the first screw to Jack. They were out over the abyss, so I couldn't rap off the screw. I thought about freeing the ends and basically using Jack as the counterweight, but not knowing the extent of his injuries I didn't want to submit him to that pressure. Eli's article and method has a place in the quiver. It is a simple way to just get the belayer out of the system. Unfortunately self rescue is a complicated, situational scenario that doesn't lend itself to a tech tip in a magazine. |
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Thanks Jon. I was careful to speak of "analogous situations" precisely because I didn't pretend to know all the considerations for yours. |