Simul Climbing Techniques

I recently simuled the Third Flatiron in CO and had kind of a miserable time with it. We had a really long rope. I was following, going a bit faster than the leader, and had to keep managing an ever growing loop, making sure it did not get caught underneath a flake or something.

What are some systems/techniques to alleviate this problem? I love climbing long, easy/moderate multi-pitches but would really like to find a way to do it faster.

What would be the biggest disadvantages to using a really short rope, like 30 - 40 ft? If I also had a full length rope for rappelling or sections where we needed a proper lead belay, are there any problems with just using a really short rope?

i think there are 2 keys to simulclimbing;
1) follower needs to be patient and not be trying to climb up the leader's ass.
2) not falling.

i don't like the short rope idea - i think it is a lot better to have a fair length of rope, so that you always have gear between you. if you are simulclimbing, it is probably on easy ground, so the leader will be spacing out the gear.

Sounds like the problem was that you were going faster than you should have been. Be patient. What do you really gain by going faster than the leader?

If you want to go faster either a) find someone who leads faster or b) solo.

As for the shorter rope bit, yes you could do that:

1) leader ties in
2) pull out however much rope you want
3) tie in with fig 8 on a bight, alpine butterfly, or whatever (connect to harness w/ locking biner)
4) coil the rest of the rope

I don't see what this would really gain you in terms of going faster but could be useful if you needed to stay closer for some reason (communication, etc).

I don't remember where I read this, but I heard the suggestion that you could coil extra loops around your shoulder, then run the rope through a grigri on your harness and pay out or take in slack as needed. Then again I don't do much simulclimbing so I have never tried this, just an idea.

It's the second’s responsibility to manage the rope, if you are growing the loop between you and your partner who's leading.... You're not doing your job plain and simple. A 30ft rope would be a nightmare, especially on the flatirons; you might get 2 pieces between you at any given point if the leader stitches the whole climb. Shortest rope I use for simul is a 30m (carry a tag line) and that’s more than close enough for proper communication.

As the second:
Pace the leader, maintain a small loop, keep 2 pieces or more between you, and please god don’t fall.

I am normally the second when I simul with a buddy of mine. We simuled a large chunk of Infinite Bliss in WA (23 pitches of mostly easy slabs). The leader lead off as normal and as soon as he had about 3/4 of the rope out, I coiled the rest and put it over my shoulder. My connection on the rope was my gri gri, which worked out very nicely. I would also back up the gri gri with a stopper knot on the brake line side of the device.

I would climb with about a 10' loop in the rope so that I could actually take a rest at a good stance when one came up. Also, the advantage of the gri gri is that the leader could call down to me when it got a little spicy. I would daisy in to the nearest bolt and belay him normally.

I have simuled a few other sections of longer routes this way and it has always worked well.

BJB wrote:I recently simuled the Third Flatiron in CO and had kind of a miserable time with it. We had a really long rope. I was following, going a bit faster than the leader, and had to keep managing an ever growing loop, making sure it did not get caught underneath a flake or something. What are some systems/techniques to alleviate this problem? I love climbing long, easy/moderate multi-pitches but would really like to find a way to do it faster. What would be the biggest disadvantages to using a really short rope, like 30 - 40 ft? If I also had a full length rope for rappelling or sections where we needed a proper lead belay, are there any problems with just using a really short rope?

My advice is to take a more restrained approach in the future so you don't kill yourself or your wife.

According to your other post neither of you had climbed the flatirons before. You had a limited time window and decided to climb with snow and "ice raining" down from the top. Your wife hadn't climbed in months, and wanted to learn trad. Given all of this you decided the best course of action was to have her try leading on gear under these conditions while simulclimbing for the first time for either of you.

Glad you two made it out OK, even if it was miserable. Hopefully this was a learning experience.

From the "other post."

But all in all it was a great day. My wife was really happy to have gotten to lead trad (even though there was really no pro beyond those eyebolts), we were able to simul climb for the first time (maybe not the wisest choice with the falling ice, but it worked out ok), and the climbing was spectacular and fun. I'm a bit sad we couldn't make it over to Eldo, but that'll give us a reason to come back.

Wholly shit dude... Life choices man, life choices.

While your situation didn't seem super well advised, you ask a good question.

My main alpine climbing partner and I have simul climbed a fair bit by us each taking in 1/4 of the rope on a mountaineer's coil to be closer so communication is easier. I've oftentimes been a bit annoyed with all that extra rope around my shoulders and have contemplated using a 30m gym rope instead. But the need to rappel off routes has made that option seem a bit impractical.

Ryan Kempf wrote:From the "other post." But all in all it was a great day. My wife was really happy to have gotten to lead trad (even though there was really no pro beyond those eyebolts), we were able to simul climb for the first time (maybe not the wisest choice with the falling ice, but it worked out ok), and the climbing was spectacular and fun. I'm a bit sad we couldn't make it over to Eldo, but that'll give us a reason to come back. Wholly shit dude... Life choices man, life choices.

Yup, like I said in the quote, wasn't the smartest choice. Been thinking a fair bit about how to do things better. Always a risky thing to do in a forum context. I realized right after we finished simuling (we were on normal belay for the last three pitches) I should have just gone slower. I realize it would have made for a better story if I had done it exactly right first try, but that's not what happened.

Now I'm trying to see if there are any other ways to do it better that I hadn't thought of/seen done before. Title of the thread is simul climbing techniques. I know it's a hard topic to talk about at all for some people, but let's try and keep it to "simul climbing techniques" on the thread, and feel free to PM me with any personal advice.

This

Mountain Coil
youtube.com/watch?v=UmBafmA…

your wife must have a life insurance policy

Ben Beckerich wrote:Keeping a few meters over your shoulder allows you a good cushion for letting the leader out if you need to piss or get hung up on something, and then taking in rope as needed. The grigri trick works well, but you can also just use a knot- overhand, butterfly, whatever. The follower is responsible for making sure the leader doesn't get shorted or be exposed to unnecessarily long fall potential. You're still, essentially, belayer... you must develop your system and do it right. There's definitely no excuse for climbing above a big loop of rope.

I did start to coil the rope as I went after it got snagged the first time, but it still felt like kind of a mess. My coil wasn't great though, so I'll look at the above vid. The grigri thing is also something I hadn't thought of, and I think that could help.

And keep in mind that even if your leader is a stronger climber than you, you'll still have a tendency to follow faster and build up a loop of rope. This is because the leader is leading: the leader has to route-find and place gear, both of which slow him or her down.

I've found that there's sort of an accordion effect when simuling (simulling?)- you often have to pause in uncomfortable stances while your leader figures something out, and then hustle when the leader blasts off again.

Part of simulclimbing is recognizing that it's sort of awkward for the follower and that you have to give the leader the benefit of the doubt. Shortening the rope to 30m and using a grigri to control slack allows for better communication and rope management.

And the leader should try to place gear that's easy to clean so that the follower doesn't have to swear and yell and short rope the leader while trying to bash out a welded nut.

I find 50 metres the best length. You need to keep three pieces and/or a minitraxion between you if you can on most routes. If you need to shorten the rope see my pictures of doing this here:
simul

I got a good tip on simulclimbing from an old issue of Rock and Ice. I find that it works really well especially if I am using a longer rope like a 70 meter and I want to be able to communicate with my partner easier and avoid rope drag issues.

Find the halfway mark in the rope and tie a figure eight on a bite. Clip this to one climber. The other climber ties in with both the other ends. Both climbers can then run the two strands of rope through their belay devices and clip to their belay loop or harness. This way you can quickly plug in an anchor and put the other climber on belay.

No one has mentioned this yet, but be extremely careful using tiblocks while simul-climbing. This technique is extremely useful for pitches like the slab on “Magic Dragon” in the CA Needles (ie a bolt every 100ft). Sounds like a good idea (if the 2nd falls he does not pull off the leader) but keep in mind that the rope diameter and radius of the binner used dictate how the tiblock engages the rope.

There is a real possibility to de-sheath the rope in a fall using this technique if you have the wrong setup.

a rope-man makes simul climbing potentially "safer" as it will catch the second if they fall, but really you shouldn't be simul climbing if there is a chance you could fall. Rope mans are really cool though, just clip it to a bomber piece.

mtoensing wrote:a rope-man makes simul climbing potentially "safer" as it will catch the second if they fall, but really you shouldn't be simul climbing if there is a chance you could fall. Rope mans are really cool though, just clip it to a bomber piece.

I agree, but the rope drag on that system sucks. At least with my beat ass ropeman.

powderfinger wrote:I got a good tip on simulclimbing from an old issue of Rock and Ice. I find that it works really well especially if I am using a longer rope like a 70 meter and I want to be able to communicate with my partner easier and avoid rope drag issues. Find the halfway mark in the rope and tie a figure eight on a bite. Clip this to one climber. The other climber ties in with both the other ends. Both climbers can then run the two strands of rope through their belay devices and clip to their belay loop or harness. This way you can quickly plug in an anchor and put the other climber on belay.

This sounds like a great way to really ensure a fall has the worst possible outcome. (assuming a single-rated rope and you're using it as a 'double') You're increasing the forces on the gear and climbers in any fall situation by greatly reducing the rope's stretch. Bad idea.
If I'm picturing this wrong, lemme know.

And this was mentioned in a magazine as a 'tip'? I really must be seeing it wrong.

Hey, these links might be worth reading if you enjoy the advantages of simul climbing. It's good to be aware of what can go wrong and be prepared for the consequences. No one's immune unfortunately.

publications.americanalpine…
publications.americanalpine…