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Shopping for first rack. Suggestions?

Original Post
Mikeybarro · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 15

So to start with some background. I'm a freshman in college. I am knowledgeable in lead climbing. I am a NOLS Alaskan mountaineering alumnus. I just recently summited my first real Alpine climb this past summer in the Cordillera Blanca, Peru- 17,910 ft. That expedition was with mountain madness. I'm looking to get into more alpine climbing. I know this means that I need to start at trad. I'm organizing a small group of climbers at my school who are interested in learning more advanced climbing techniques that the school cannot be responsible for. So we have to go underground and fund our own equipment and learn ourselves. We hope to progress from trad to multi-pitch to ice and then maybe in two or three years to independent alpine climbs. Where should we start with equipment purchases?

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

Mikey,

Don't just learn on your own from books and the Internet. Find someone experienced to teach you.

A harness, shoes and a helmet, belay device and carabiner are a good start. Don't worry about what you need for a rack. If you have to ask, you probably aren't ready to buy a rack. After you find someone experienced to teach you, be it a guide or an experienced person, then you and your friends can go toproping.

I'm not sure what you mean by "lead knowledgeable," but don't get yourself or your friends killed because you were winging it without proper instruction.

Have fun and stay safe.

Bill Czajkowski · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 20

Underground? Trad climbing's illegal in places now?

Scott M. McNamara · · Presidio San Augustine Del… · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 55

One of things you might consider is:

What cams are on (or will be on) your partners rack?

If you buy a rack that is not very common, or buy a variety of different manufacturers cams over time, then that is what you will learn. That is the rack with which you will become familiar and comfortable.

If your rack radically differs from that of your partners, then they will not want to climb on it. It will stress them on harder climbs. They have to take the cam and hold it near the crack. It will be harder for them to lead at their limit.

They cannot “plug and chug.” They will insist you climb on their rack. This will stress you, since you will not be familiar with their rack.

Eventually, if you climb with your "idiosyncratic" rack long enough, you will only want to climb on your rack because---you learned what fits where and be able to “plug and chug” only on it.

This becomes a bigger problem on alpine and multi-pitch. Carrying two racks is just crazy—heavy and harder to move quickly and efficiently.

For this reason, in my view, the decision of what rack you purchase involves more than simply the quality of the cams.

A common rack is a a set of doubles (Camalots and Metolius, for example) and and full set of nuts.

Most people know, for example, with Black Diamond C4's, hands = yellow Camalot; tight hands = red Camalot; rattlely fingers = green Camalot, and etc.

Have Fun!

Scott Mc

Mikeybarro · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 15
FrankPS wrote: I'm not sure what you mean by "lead knowledgeable,"
I probably should have better articulated this. My friends and I are experienced lead climbers. We already have and are very familiar with all the tools and mechanics of sport climbing. What I'm really asking is what size nuts and cams I should buy to start off a rack? What should be our next steps in equipment as we progress from trad to multipitch?
Doug18 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 0

If you are looking for a shopping list start basic.
BD cams .5-3 doubles on 1-3
Metolius power cams or master cams 1-5
Metolius TCU 0-3
Set of nuts
8 -10 alpine draws
4-6 locking biners
7mm cord for anchor building
Sewn slings
Later you can add more gear as you climb more and will see what you need.
That is a good starter rack for most single pitch areas.
Please learn from an experienced climber on proper use of cams if you don't have
a lot of experience.
Be safe and have fun!

Don Ferris III · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 186

Everybody, and I do mean everybody, should start with all passive pro. Buy a set of nuts, a set of offset nuts, slung hexes, and tricams. That will get you through 99% of what you are capable leading pretty safely.

Dylan Weldin · · Ramstein, DE · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 1,715

I started trad climbing at the end of high school and fondly recall the exciting cusp you've found yourself at. I asked the same question about six years ago and now would like to give you the following advice: you love climbing. You're obviously invested in it. Buy the right gear one time and in the long run you'll save money and not regret purchasing cheaper but inferior kit. I have a number of partners who purchased lots of shoddy used gear rather than a small amount of the right stuff and they do indeed regret it.

Nuts:
I started with a full set of Black Diamond stoppers sizes 4-13. Don't do that. Go straight to offsets and you'll appreciate their versatility. Start with a full set of these and then add more of the sizes you use the most often:
outdoorgearlab.com/Climbing…

When you feel very confident in your larger nut placements add the larger sizes of these:
outdoorgearlab.com/Climbing…

Cams:
Buy a single set of Black Diamond camalots from .3 to 4. Read route descriptions for the beginner pitches at your local crag and only buy the #4 if it's needed. Get on some pitches and find yourself saying "man I wish I had another [hand/ fist/ finger] sized piece" and buy another of that piece.

Other:
  • skip the ATC and go straight to an ATC Guide
  • Better yet, skip the ATC guide and go straight to a Gri Gri
  • 3 Lightweight locking carabiners that are munter compatible (Petzl Attache suggested)
  • One 21' length of 6-7mm cord for anchors
  • A prussic loop
  • Alpine draws 8-10 24" sewn slings. Stay away from dyneema for long-term durability. outdoorgearlab.com/Climbing…
  • Nail polish (I like the Revlon brand) to mark all your gear with a distinct pattern/ dot


Split all this up amongst your friends and you will collectively have an effective kit for many climbs. As you progress you will be drawn to new pitches with specific gear requirements (e.g. #5 camalot/ blue alien sized piece/ tricam in a pod). Buy these specialty pieces as needed.
Matt N · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 415

Rule #1
Do not buy unless they are at least 25% off. 30-35% is better. You have to be patient, buy online so you avoid sales tax, get free shipping and hopefully stack with one of those cashrebate sites (cleansnipe, active junky, etc).

If you shop smart like this, you can sell your used gear (if you want to upgrade or don't like a certain style of cam, etc) for what you paid.

Get some funds and a list together and wait for Black Friday / Cyber Monday deals coming up...

Chris Rice · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 55

The best advice I can give you to to climb with more than one others who have a rack and see what gear "feels good" in your hand and head. Just about every company makes safe gear - but one will feel better when in use - and the only way to know this is to use it. Camalots feel different than Mastercams - Dragoncams - Friends etc. And one of those is going to suit you better than another - you need to find out which you prefer. A sort of "standard rack" is a set of nuts and a set of cams plus doubles of that (or a part of that) - depending on the climb - with lots of things perhaps added on. Just as as an easy example - go to a climbing shop and start handling carabiners - some will feel "right" and others won't - with my big hands all the small biners are harder to handle than something bigger - it's not that all of them won't work because they will. After several years you won't really care whose rack you climb with except at your limit - you'll become comfortable with about all of it.

mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885

Both some decent advice in here and some questionable stuff. What's ideal for your areas and personal preference will obviously vary and can only be determined with time. Things like how awesome offset nuts are really depend on area ( they're awesome in some areas and junk in some as well). A solid starting setup that you can resell later will help minimize costs and losses as you hone your systems.

Heed the sales and stacking advise above. You can get 35% less than MSRP (or more) with some work and patience

Good Set of standard nuts (BD works, I prefer WC or DMM). Add DMM peanuts and Offsets later if needed for doubles

Cams: doubles C4s .75-4. Maybe 5 if desired
One set Totem Basic or Fixe Evo blue-red
one set X4s .1-.5 or TCU equivalent

All those pieces will be great to start and are easily resold on the Project if desired later.

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256

I think the type of rock you will be mainly climbing on is a consideration. Personally when climbing on granite I prefer to have aliens in the small cams up to 1". On soft sandstone I would rather have cams with more surface area on the small cams like camalots or metolius fat cams.

Nuts:
double set of DMM offsets
Maybe a cheap set of whatever you can find used to use as leaver gear of mountain routes. Sucks to leave your nice offset nuts.

Doubles in Aliens:
Green Alien - grey alien or Red Alien

Doubles in Camalots:
.5 or .75-#3

Single:
#4 camalot
blue alien, or purple metolius

A set of small to medium size tri cams and a large hex or 2 for light weight easy alpine climbs.

benb · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 0

I started leading trad just like you. It is fun to look back and remember. Like others here, I'm a little jealous, and have some thoughts.

Yes, it's best if you can find a grizzled veteran mentor to help teach you. No, that's not always possible, and many of us on here mostly learned on our own; I was one of them. Your call, but with MP it's easier to find partners than ever, and I too would recommend trying to get out with other folks if possible. There are lots of forum threads here on finding mentors and on partner groups. Do yourself a favor and seek those folks out. Not that everyone has flawless knowledge/technique though - learn on your own too, and pay attention. Whether it's you and your noob (to gear) friends, or other allegedly "experienced" climbers, your safety is your responsibility. You probably know this, but it's worth mentioning. As always, yer gonna die!!

Enough of that.

Using other people's racks at first can indeed be extremely helpful and is probably the best option.

But maybe you just want to start playing with gear. In that case, I strongly agree with the idea of buying quality gear to start with. As is obvious by reading threads like this one, everyone has their own ideas at to what is favorite, so it can be tough to get uniformity. However, there's a reason Camalots are typically seen as the baseline/gold standard for cams, and I would have been better off buying them initially than "saving" a couple bucks buying something else cause it was cheaper. I just had to replace all that crap, which I still have many years later but never use unless I go to Indian Creek and somehow can't borrow enough from friends.

The above rack suggestions are all fine. My standard rack is stoppers and HB offsets, double camalots from .5 to 3, metolius tcu and powercams for the small sizes (00-3 or so), plus the other stuff Doug lists above. YMMV. Outdoor gear lab (or is it supertopo's Yosemite section?) has some decent ideas about a clean climbing rack.

I also like Don's idea about starting with passive pro. It's way cheaper and is also what I did since I couldn't afford cams at first. More importantly, it forces you to learn to place that stuff, which it seems like some people now never learn to do. That's a huge shame since many routes require good passive placing skills, or you might (gasp) not always have the right size cam. Buy some nuts - maybe a set of stoppers and a set of offsets like suggested above- and use just them for a month. Heck, go to some sport climbs that have some crack options and you can do it safely, on lead, while also clipping the bolts. This passive-only-at-first thing isn't really required, but it seems like a great idea to me.

Follow Matt N.'s rule #1 above. If you can take your time a bit (especially on cams) it's absolutely right, unless you have more money than you know what to do with. I like to buy new gear these days and you can always find deals with a little patience. I usually look for deals on backcountry.com these days; they regularly have 25% or more off, but I'm sure there are many other options.

Have fun! Be safe. Where are you located, anyway? If you're ever in SLC I'm happy to take you out.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

To everyone's point buying a rack isn't like buying a car. I spent many years building, researching, buying, selling, upgrading etc. my rack. It's not something I "went out and bought".

It's a lot of cash unless you plan to drop 2-3k right off the bat between all the cams, biners, slings, passive pro etc. Like everyone said climb with other people before you spend all that money just to turn around and sell it near new on MP.

Also sure people learn by getting out after it. I did, but be cautious of buying gear then taking a bunch of other beginners out to learn trad.

You might wanna concentrate on you first. Just my 2 cents.

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

I realize you're asking for a shopping list, but...

What you've described suggests to me that you have a group wanting to learn. That is an excellent opportunity to pool funds and hire a guide to instruct you all on trad climbing. The guide can go over gear needs and types, placements, how the entire system works, multi pitch including belays, etc, etc. This, imo, would be a much better idea than just buying gear and heading out to learn together. The mechanics come to some people more easily than others and yes, guides can be expensive, but with a group you will each get first-hand knowledge and experience.

As far as a rack goes: there are a lot of brands out there to look at. Everyone has something good to say about one brand or another. Some people like tricams or hexes, some like both,some like neither. Hopefully you can get some first hand experience and find out what you, personally prefer.

Brandon.Phillips · · Portola, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 55

If I was going to start a rack from scratch right now I would go with the new Metolius Ultralight Master Cams.

blog.weighmyrack.com/metoli…

They are lighter than the new BD cams and have what has been called a "floating axle" feature for better placements in horizontals.

Doubles up to a Number 4 Camalot size will give you a versatile rack of cams. I also carry a full set of BD nuts, some DMM peanuts, and the DMM offsets.

Pink,red,blue,brown tri-cams are pretty versatile.

And if you planning on alpine climbing get a full set of hexes.

Rack this stuff with 12 of the camp mach express dyneema draws.
camp-usa.com/products/quick…
They are worth the money if you are starting from scratch.

Eli Buzzell · · noco · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5,507

Anyone that recommends you get anything more than a set of BD nuts from #4-#13 and a set of BD C4s from size .5-3 is entirely wrong. That is the be-all-end-all of the gear you should get to start off with, everything else you will buy as you believe you need it. This relatively light rack will get you up the majority of climbs you are capable of leading right now while also familiarizing with the standard cam sizes most people use, or are at least very familiar with.

Single set Black Diamond nuts from #4-#13
Single set of Black Diamond Cams from .5-3

Also anyone that tells you not to buy shoddy used gear just wants it for themselves.

Get at it.

jaredj · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2013 · Points: 165

Buy nice, or buy twice....

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

The website weighmyrack.com has great price comparisons.

Start with one full set of nuts (i like metolius or omega pacific)and one full set of cams and 12 slings/trad draws on wiregates.

I personally would recommend full cams from 1 to 8 Metolius or .3-3 BD (or 4 if you have the money). Don't buy cams smaller than that to start with.

That rack, adding it to a partners, will totally get you going. If you will be just using your own, buy a second set of nuts and you will still be fine.

If you learn BD and Metolius sizing, you will be set for being able to effectively use most any rack you come across.

Phil Sakievich · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 131

+ 1 for FrankPS

I think the best place for you to start is by finding someone to climb with. It will be cheaper because you can use their rack, and you can make informed decisions on what brands and gear you like based off experience. Everybody's got an opinion on cams, nuts etc, but a lot of that boils down to what works for you, rock type and preferred style.

Plus it will be a lot safer if you climb with an experienced leader. There are so many more variables you have to account for when leading trad vs sport, and so it is nice to follow your first few pitches and have someone to give you feedback when you take the sharp end. When you climb trad you will get very run out at times, and you will have to place questionable gear at times. No body is placing bolts for you to make it "safe" and so you have to place gear where it is available. However, an experienced partner can help you learn how to minimize those situations and assess the risk when they do occur.

You will also need to learn a new set of skills if your coming straight from sport crags and the gym: jamming. Trad lines follow crack systems and having jamming skills really, really helps. It will be crucial if you want to climb hard stuff. However, jamming is not as natural as face climbing. You've been grabbing, pinching and pulling since you were a toddler, but have probably never needed to hand jam or ring lock in your life. This can be a painful and slow thing to learn, but having a partner will help here too.

I'm not trying to be a nay sayer or anything like that. Trad climbing is awesome! It opens the door for you to climb all over the place, and conquer the best lines. I'm just saying if you're going to jump in, do it right.

That being said, if you are intent on buying gear (we all get the itch):

I agree with the general sentiment of the thread: BD cams are versatile so get a set from 0.3-3 for sure (maybe #4, check the routes in your area). You really should have doubles that cover this range, but the second set can be other brands if you want. I find a lot of gear beta is based around BD sizes so it will help a lot to have at least one complete set of them. Also, at least one set of nuts, alpine draws and anchor building material (lockers and slings/cordelettes). This will get you up a ton of routes. Add more small or large gear as your climbing needs dictate.

Nick Drake · · Kent, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 651

Follow, follow, follow and follow some more. Do not just run out and buy a rack.
Find a mentor, if you check your ego at the door, you're eager to learn, enthusiastic about climbing, and bring the cooler with beer for after this should not be hard. After you have cragged together and they know you are competent you can learn a LOT by following up a multi-pitch route. Most climbers will have a classic moderate they were taken up early on and be very excited to take a newer climber up it to share that experience. Look for the details in how they make placements, ask them to take you up routes with tricky pro, watch how they extend placements to manage the rope drag, etc...

Even better, find more than one experienced climber, go with as many partners as you can, pick their brain each time on gear and technique. Many people get stuck in to "their way" which may not be the best for every scenario, the more techniques you have in the bank the better, especially if you are looking toward alpine routes.

The other reason that I say to climb with mentors is so that you can use their gear, hopefully you can find partners with different brands in their racks. By using partners gear I found what worked for me. Over 1" BD won, they are just nice to place, never seem to walk, most likely to be on a new partners rack and mentioned for size in route beta.

Fpr the smaller sizes a more flexible stem is nice to cut down on walking and narrower lobes fit more placements, so I am not a fan of small C4s. I prefer totem, mastercams, and X4s in that order. My current rack is totem and X4s because the colors (aside from .4) match and I had a proform from BD. If I was paying retail I probably would have the doubles in mastercams. I say totems first because the individually loaded cam lobes are quite handy in funky/slightly flared placements. In those 10-20% of placements that would questionable with a standard cam design they are still bomber. I just wish they weren't so damn expensive.

I agree on the earlier statement about nuts, I tend to place cams when possible and if it's not that typically means there is a flare and it's perfect for DMM offsets. I have DMM offset brass below that, but have heard good things about peenuts which will be more durable. If you want a standard shape nut the recessed face of wallnuts makes it easier to get stable placements if you are climbing on more textured rock. Metolious nuts just seemed like a pita to clean.
If the rock you're climbing has light texture BD nuts work, but if it's granite with a lot of crystals the smooth face doesn't place as nicely (minimal point of contact on just a crystal makes them more unstable and requires a hard yank to place).

Tricams can be great if you know how to use them, the problem is whether your partner can clean them fast and knows how to place them. No point in bringing pro your partner can't lead on. I still bring a pink tricam on most alpine climbs, because I always seem to find some pocket that it fits perfectly when nothing else does.

Check the weight on biners before your stock up. Look for a nose angle that doesn't curve down toward vertical as they are easier to unclip. This goes for racking biners on your cams also (COLOR MATCH), don't get neutrinos just because that's what the guy at REI says. Seriously their nose sucks and they are heavy by todays standards. Nano 22s are great, highly recommend them unless you are wearing big gloves.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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