Screw placements

Hey guys,

I was replying to another thread when that got me thinking about when and where I place screws. I'm interested in hearing how far apart everyone places screws. I understand the answer would vary depending on conditions and the route. Still I know I try to place them every 20-30 feet and always protect the climb not the move so I don't hit the ground. What do you do?

It depends.

The rule up here in Canuckistan is use the number of screws in the WI-grade per pitch. WI4 = you get four screws. Anchors not included.

^^^
Sweet 6+ for me all winter.

That's a genius rule Steven, makes a lot of sense. If ya'll didn't ruin perfectly good french fries by confusing them for biscuits, I just might have to defect to the Canuckistan of which you speak, it sounds like a logical place.

Yep depends... Lots of variables. I will run it out if I feel secure, but if not I will zip it up. I usually bring 8-10 screws total and rack what I need at the time. Generally 4-8 depending on anchor placements/ need. Nothing better than a well protected route. A 30' runout is a 60' whipper, ouch.

Just Solo wrote:A 30' runout is a 60' whipper, ouch.

A good bit more than 60' actually, once you factor in rope stretch, slack, lifting the belayer, knots tightening. Probably closer to 70'-75'.

I'm not saying this to be pedantic. These are things that a lead climber has to be acutely aware of when managing risk, fall distance, knowing when to back off, etc.

Bill Kirby wrote: Hey guys, I was replying to another thread when that got me thinking about when and where I place screws. I'm interested in hearing how far apart everyone places screws. I understand the answer would vary depending on conditions and the route. Still I know I try to place them every 20-30 feet and always protect the climb not the move so I don't hit the ground. What do you do?

I have a different approach. My primary thought is that I'm soloing. Falling isn't an option.

So on steep ice, I'm looking ahead at both available stances and good screw placements. My priority is finding a good stance like a mushroom/bulge to stand on or a shallow groove that can be stemmed. Stances are more important to me than screws because my absolute priority on ice is to conserve strength and be efficient. I'm not particularly concerned with my screws when I'm feeling fresh and confident.

Once I've scoped out my next stance, then I'll start looking for a good placement about 4' above it. If the stance is mediocre, I might try to chop it out and enhance it when my axes are at that level before I climb above. Of course, I only do this if it can be done with 2-3 swings. I'd rather kick a stance out than chop it out which is exhausting.

The worst thing you can do on ice is attack it without a plan. If you have no plan (or a generic plan like "place screws every 20-30 feet") then you'll be left placing screws from arbitrary, suboptimal positions and get yourself pumped for no reason. Less safe, less fun.

I try to protect the climb AND the move. So if I see a candled section with shitty ice, or a thin section, I'll be looking for a good stance just below where I can place a good screw before I'm forced to run it out until good ice reappears.

Of course, in climbing, every situation is an "it depends" situation, so the above isn't gospel, but just things I always keep in mind. The mental bit was a major roadblock for me that kept me from leading anything above WI4 for many seasons.

I generally bring 10... but the real questions is, how many actually get used?

I don't really have a plan when I get on ice. But generally, I do the following:

# Place screws early even if the start is easy.
# If I'm resting, I'm placing a screw.
# Place a screw before and after the crux. Don't place screws during the crux unless the crux is really really really long (20 - 30 feet).
# Dig for good ice.

Really depends on the route.

A 60m WI3 I can use a couple but a 60m WI5 I can slap in as many as a dozen.

The climbs aren't uniform anyways, so I can go 50+' in some places and 10-' in others.

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote:That's a genius rule Steven, makes a lot of sense. If ya'll didn't ruin perfectly good french fries by confusing them for biscuits, I just might have to defect to the Canuckistan of which you speak, it sounds like a logical place.

The best application of this rule... ask yourself how many screws do you really need per pitch to climb the Lower Weeping Wall? The answer should be the rule above.

I generally protect at or just above stances and rests, since you burn the most energy placing screws. I want to be climbing through a crux, not wasting energy on one arm at the hardest part of the climb.

Sometimes I place an extra screw just before a top-out. Most of my sketchy moments are related to pulling the bulge at the top. I bring 10-12 screws anyway all the time.

Steven Kovalenko wrote: Sometimes I place an extra screw just before a top-out. Most of my sketchy moments are related to pulling the bulge at the top.

Same here. I believe Will Gadd recommends to always place before top-outs or bulges that need to be mantled as well.

Eric G. wrote: Same here. I believe Will Gadd recommends to always place before top-outs or bulges that need to be mantled as well.

+1
Less clear view of your footwork=sketchiness. Protect that section. Shit, protect all the sections that are difficult for you. Just protect from a restful stance.

I generally disagree with the whole "I treat ice climbing like I treat soloing" idea.

Why the hell are you using a rope if that's case?

Is an ice screw less bomber than a #0.75 in bullet hard granite? Probably, but not necessarily, at least in the sense of the kn forces we're talking about in a lead fall

And now you guys can post that BD video where Tim Emmett says he treats ice climbing like soloing, to invalidate my argument because I'm like, not a pro brah

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote: I generally disagree with the whole "I treat ice climbing like I treat soloing" idea.

My intent with that thought wasn't literal. I mean that my main focus when ice climbing is the climbing itself. The less I mess around with gear the better. When I'm trad climbing, I'm devoting equal time to the climbing and the protection.

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote: I generally disagree with the whole "I treat ice climbing like I treat soloing" idea. Why the hell are you using a rope

I use the rope to bring up my partner. I like to climb with someone if possible. I bought a gym buddy out with me last year. He can't belay to save my life but who cares ice climbing.. You're soloing!

I think the whole, "treat ice like soloing" is more the mindset of not falling so you don't get hurt. Yeah a screw and a cam in good placements may be sort of equivalent but the terrain is not. The mindset when you're soloing should be one of absolute confidence and certainty to not fall. It should be the same when leading ice. Yeah, you've got the rope but ice is ephemeral, terrain usually composed of lots of less than vertical and ledgy terrain. If you fall you'll likely get hurt.

Screw placements depend on a lot of things. How difficult, where are the stances, how good is the ice. I think every 10-20 ft or so is probably close to what it ends up being though. Yeah, protect the climb but why not protect certain moves. Bulges can be tricky and a screw before exiting is a good idea. Most ice falls I've heard about are near the top out.

The Blueprint Part Dank wrote: +1 Less clear view of your footwork=sketchiness. Protect that section. Shit, protect all the sections that are difficult for you. Just protect from a restful stance. I generally disagree with the whole "I treat ice climbing like I treat soloing" idea. Why the hell are you using a rope if that's case?

The rope is there to mitigate consequences of unanticipated circumstances. It gives you a bail option. The rope/screw might also keep you from dying in case something totally unanticipated happens.

You are soloing in the sense that you do not put yourself in a situation in which you have any reasonable possibility of falling. You are not soloing in the sense that you can back off if you need to, and you probably won't die if you have protected well enough.

10 rules of ice climbing:

Rule 1: don't fall
Rule 10: don't fall

The rest don't matter.

One tool should always be your "personal belay". It is never a good idea to climb with two sketchy placements. Sometimes it is a bit unavoidable, but generally, it is possible in most pure ice situations to have at least one bomber tool.

I look at screws as more of a mental relaxer than true protection, though a good screw in good ice is pretty bombproof. The trouble is all of the pointy shit that is hanging off of your body. lots of things to snag, grab, tear, impale. Jack Roberts did not die because he fell and the screw blew, he died due to impact forces sustained in the fall. Hitting hard ice is nasty, getting hit by hard ice just hurts. Protect what you need to to keep your mind cool, no matter what the situation. A freaked mind is WAY worse that a sketchy screw...

Guys! Dank's trolling.. Come on, next thing I know we'll be discussing whether or not falling on screws is a good idea.

I realize this is a late post, however knowing a bunch of you, I thought I'd add my end of year comment.

Amazing that no one mentioned anything about "depends also on whether one or two ropes are being used". With two, it's often the case that a screw is also placed (to some degree) to act as a directional for the whole "system". That's what you are really doing ==== building a system, not relying on "X ft screw". Sorry but I think that's a dump (and often dangerous) way to look at it.

Even with (or because of) you are using one rope (my preference unless long rappels down or you know the way down (a walk off or short rappels) regardless of whether you've don it before).

We all know that it doesn't take many swings of the tool to gain vertical distance. I remember vividly decades ago (yep, that old) when I was starting to lead. Totally focused, and w/o looking down, I'd take 1 swing, step, step, step, etc. Then another.....repeat and so on. Before I knew it I was much higher than I really wanted to be w/o a screw in. My expert ice climber buddy was yelling up at me.....I could barely hear him.....saying something about a "screw". I was trying to figure out if he was using a noun or a verb.....it's still a mystery.

The point is ice climbers gain height up faster than they realize (until you are skilled enough to "feel" (w/o looking down) how far you are run out and just sort of "divine" it.

My philosophy is to say "ah, screw it".