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Scarpa Phantom Guides and Toe Bail tweaks?!?!?
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By coop
From Glenwood Springs, CO
Dec 3, 2012
Indian Creek Climbing
hmm, can't decide between the dartwins or lynx for the scarpa phantoms

i like the flexibility of the lynx, but not at the sacrifice of performance/fit

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By Steven N
From CO
Dec 3, 2012
Anyone have some space Petzl bails laying around? Like others, I have Phantom Guides and use either G-14s or Sabretooths.

I'd love to give the Petzl bail a try

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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Dec 3, 2012
Middle
Petzl USA has spares. Call them and buy a set, they are cheap and Petzl is very good about shipping them out.

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By Steven N
From CO
Dec 13, 2012
Contacted Petzl and they said they're only availablet for warranty issues. WTF?

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By Chris Graham
From Bartlett, NH
Dec 13, 2012
portrait
Steven N wrote:
Contacted Petzl and they said they're only availablet for warranty issues. WTF?


Petzl can really suck sometimes...

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By APBT1976
Dec 13, 2012
Black Dike 12/25/11
Idk so far my Lynx fit my Phantom guides just fine.

Yes the front points are pigeon toed a bit but that was the case last year on a pair of Baturas.

Sux that Petzle would do that regarding the front bails..

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By Kevin Hart
From Conifer, CO
Dec 13, 2012
Hey,
I have the same boots/lynx ... oddly enough if you swap the linking bar (left right), you can then align the front points almost perfectly by messing around with their toe bail. When the linking bars were not swapped, I had the same pigeon toe points and could not change them enough with just moving the toe bail around.

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By Chris Graham
From Bartlett, NH
Dec 14, 2012
portrait
Kevin Hart wrote:
Hey, I have the same boots/lynx ... oddly enough if you swap the linking bar (left right), you can then align the front points almost perfectly by messing around with their toe bail. When the linking bars were not swapped, I had the same pigeon toe points and could not change them enough with just moving the toe bail around.


Hey Kevin!

I ended up doing the same thing and they look much better...so messed up. I wonder if the linking bars for the Vasak or Sarkens would work too as they seem to be less extreme with the curve? I am keeping them like this for now...messed up design?!?!?

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By Ray Pinpillage
From West Egg
Dec 14, 2012
Middle
Chris Graham wrote:
Hey Kevin! I ended up doing the same thing and they look much better...so messed up. I wonder if the linking bars for the Vasak or Sarkens would work too as they seem to be less extreme with the curve? I am keeping them like this for now...messed up design?!?!?


I'm surprised Petzl won't send out bails, I called them a few weeks ago and they sent me a pair of Lynx soft bails. Tell them it is to fix your crampons.

Did you try swapping the front sections? I asked because reversing the center bars binds up the crampons a lot and that boot is pretty flexible.

Vasak and Sarken link bars will fit, Petzl crampons are like legos.

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By Chris Graham
From Bartlett, NH
Dec 14, 2012
portrait
Ray Pinpillage wrote:
Did you try swapping the front sections? I asked because reversing the center bars binds up the crampons a lot and that boot is pretty flexible. Vasak and Sarken link bars will fit, Petzl crampons are like legos.


Ray, I did exactly that...just switched the front sections over. It isn't perfect, but they feel secure and a much more natural kick is noticed now. I don't ever remember having these issues with my darts or dartwins.

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By Yotsuba
Jan 16, 2013
So I just got a pair of Phantoms, toe welt is a lot more narrower than I expected!

Just had a question to ask, since it seems to be on topic with the current thread...


I have G14's at the moment that I'd like to fit on there. I went to put the crampons on, and as expected, the front toe welt makes very little contact with the bail. The curled circular sections on the sides of the bail however appear to be flush with the boot and doesn't wiggle.

Hoping to set the bails to a vice to do some crunching, however, with the sides of the bail sitting flush with my shoe, will that be cause for concern? I feel like it would be difficult to slide the boots into place afterwards with a narrower opening.


On a side note, does anyone have advice on how to move the front bails back a notch? Having a lot of trouble pulling them out.

Thanks!

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By Gunkiemike
Jan 16, 2013
Yotsuba wrote:
I have G14's at the moment that I'd like to fit on there. I went to put the crampons on, and as expected, the front toe welt makes very little contact with the bail. The curled circular sections on the sides of the bail however appear to be flush with the boot and doesn't wiggle.


I'd say if you have 3 points of contact at the front bail (the tip of the welt, and the two sides) then that's good enough.

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By Auto-X Fil
From NEPA and Upper Jay, NY
Jan 16, 2013
I used G12s with no issues on my Phantom Guides. The curled pieces on the side do indeed hold the crampon in place side-to-side. I wouldn't mess with it.

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By Joe Palma
From Stouffville, Ontario
Jan 17, 2013
Yotsuba wrote:
On a side note, does anyone have advice on how to move the front bails back a notch? Having a lot of trouble pulling them out. Thanks!


Moving the bails on G14's is extremely unpleasant and way more of a problem than it should be. Used a vice, large slotted screw driver, hammer and lots of muscle to get mine out/in. Wear leather work gloves to protect your hands as well.

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By Steven N
From CO
Jan 22, 2013
I used a sling to pull on the bail as I held the crampon sideways (with shoes on!)

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By Jon H
From Boulder
Jan 22, 2013
At the matching crux
Joe Palma wrote:
Moving the bails on G14's is extremely unpleasant and way more of a problem than it should be. Used a vice, large slotted screw driver, hammer and lots of muscle to get mine out/in. Wear leather work gloves to protect your hands as well.


Don't do this. It will work harden the bail and lead to premature failure.

Do as Joe Palma suggests above. Place the crampon on the ground on its side, step on it, and loop a section of cord through the bail right wear it enters the crampon frame and pull up. It will pop right out. It's actually pretty easy. Reverse the process to replace the bail.

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By Dane
Jan 22, 2013
Cham '11
The webbing and stand on process seems simple enough. Gloves will still protect you as required. Still not that easy, I don't like it and I do lots of them.

Work hardening?

Taking bales on and off isn't going to do much (if anything) to work harden the stainless Petzl bales and nothing at all to the chromoly bales on the BDs or Grivels.

Pounding (as in climbing in them) on the stainless Petzl bales over time will. Not a bad idea to change the Petzl stainless bales once in a while depending on how much you climb. Climb a lot? Change them every season or two. Love the Petzl bales but there is a down side to even the best stainless steel.

What can be much more of an issue is a stress riser that you put in a bale by even tiny cuts in the bale wire with a pair of vice grips, or the errant wack of a hammer, or the nasty nick using a sharp screw driver for a lever. Done it all. Rope or webbing on the bale is a much better idea. The hammer as the last resort.

But then how many front bales do you know of that have failed besides the stainless Petzls? And that is not a common occurance by any means. None made of chrome moly that I can think of off hand.

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By Jon H
From Boulder
Jan 23, 2013
At the matching crux
Ah, I stand corrected. It was stress risers I was thinking of, not work hardening.

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By Jon Miller on the WS
Jan 23, 2013
Dane wrote:
The webbing and stand on process seems simple enough. Gloves will still protect you as required. Still not that easy, I don't like it and I do lots of them. Work hardening? Taking bales on and off isn't going to do much (if anything) to work harden the stainless Petzl bales and nothing at all to the chromoly bales on the BDs or Grivels. Pounding (as in climbing in them) on the stainless Petzl bales over time will. Not a bad idea to change the Petzl stainless bales once in a while depending on how much you climb. Climb a lot? Change them every season or two. Love the Petzl bales but there is a down side to even the best stainless steel. What can be much more of an issue is a stress riser that you put in a bale by even tiny cuts in the bale wire with a pair of vice grips, or the errant wack of a hammer, or the nasty nick using a sharp screw driver for a lever. Done it all. Rope or webbing on the bale is a much better idea. The hammer as the last resort. But then how many front bales do you know of that have failed besides the stainless Petzls? And that is not a common occurance by any means. None made of chrome moly that I can think of off hand.

I have broken a grivel bail seen another one.

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By Jon Rhoderick
Jan 23, 2013
When removing the petzl bails it helps to file off a little bit of the bail end. Leave the end with the 90 degree bends alone, the other has a pressed-flat section that acts as a key so the bail can only be removed when bent all the way back. After the pressed section there is about 7.5 mm of round cross section again, I filed this off and the crampons come on and off much easier. You could file through the pressed section as well and then you wouldn't need a sling to remove the bail.

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