Russian Aider Interest?

Howdy folks. Last year I cranked out just over a dozen pairs of Russian Aider Cuffs. I'm contemplating doing another run this winter/spring, but I want to know if there is interest, or if the market is saturated?

Planned improvements if I do another run:

1. Per PTPP's whining I've ginned up (but not sewn up yet, so no pics) a way to do a trango loops for the feet instead of a single strap to a stirrup. It'll still have a cinch strap, but the cinch strap will be part of a free floating rash guard (replaceable) instead of being integral to the stirrup.

2. Better foam. I found a source of close cell polyethylene foam that looks to be firmer and less prone to memory.

3. I'm playing with the Metolius boulder pad buckles for the calf strap. Not sure if it'll stay or not. It makes them much easier to get on and off, and so far they appear not to come loose unintentionally. We'll see. Might just be optional?

Aid Trees:

I made a pair of aid trees for myself using SMC rap rings, and I love them. However they are spendy at $3/ring (so $54 of material cost for the rings alone). My new tweak is to have them stick straigh out to the sides. My original scheme of using strips of ruber from an old inner tube worked for a while, but after a dozen or so pitches they are not working as well as when they were new. I'm gonna play with plasty-dip and other schemes to stiffen these before they will be ready for prime time. For now, Russ's aid trees are still quite the bargain.

And how is a careful engineering evaluation and discussion of the pros and cons of your product - including its design flaws - seen as "whining"? Do tell.

supertopo.com/climbing/thre… You'll find my comments and photos two-thirds of the way down the page, at August 18.

I would like a pair of the new design, however, assuming it addresses the above concerns.

my setup is pretty simple, but served me well

I solved the padding- buckle problem with the legloops of a retired harness.
The buckles are great, no slip and easy to open and close.



my legloops are assembled out of a quicklink and a sewn runner
adjustment is done with a clove hitch
the whole thing is kept at my foot with a simple strap


the hook is filed out of 4mm stainless steel

so no sewing involved (I simply can't sew)
comfy enough for me
and comes with color coded legloops(red/blue), not shown here.

edit to add:
I use the fish ring trees (one per daisy)which are good though not perfect.
IMHO the ring pairs are too close together, so getting the second hook in is sometimes more difficult than necessary.
The russian ones I saw by now (from that country)use a piece of tape twice as long for the second ring than on the fish trees.
So stepping up is a lot easier and there is no need for a second pair of ringtrees (less cluster).
But that's no real problem, cause it's easy to extend a ring with a biner or quickdraw.

Pete,

The stirrup design was a combination of shameless copying from pictures of a russian design, and an evolution of the "kung fu" aiders posted of on rc.com. I've used stirrups with 1" webbing straps before in ascender systems (as show to me by cavers), so I just don't have the context to understand your assertion that this is a design flaw, but whatever... I have yet to hold a pair of trango's, and I've only ever climbed in aiders I've built myself. So the magic I am missing out on with the triangles vs lines and circles escapes my experience. Perhaps based on the bridge building argument I should build aiders out of cromoly steel instead of floppy webbing? Are ropes inherently poorly designed because they are built in a straight line? Perhaps your analogy sucks monkey balls?

Send me your aiders back, I'll redo them in the more Trango style, no charge.

Moof: Um, wow. You're pretty good with a sewing machine, but you really don't understand the physics, do you? Triangles, circles and straight lines are the fundamentals of structure. And your logical arguments remain flawed.

Marde, some suggestions: You need to make your circular footloop adjustable, and make it longer. You need to put an adjustment buckle into it - like the Trango design - so that you can vary its length. Finally, you need to lose the piece of green cord, and put the apex of the circular footloop [which becomes triangular when you stand on it] directly into the bottom of the hook.

Quit trying to reinvent the wheel! The Trango design is fully functional, with the exception of a few design flaws. Use the photos in my McTopo post, and copy it. Do some proper sewing and use proper buckles, and you guys'll have something that's better.

The problems with the Trango design are well documented in the various posts in the Aid Forum at RC.com - all you have to do is copy the Trango design, and make the suggested modifications. If you actually want to fondle the Trango design, let me know. They are in Yosemite and I can make sure you get access to them. Bring your camera and take some pictures if you like.

Some problems with Trango design:

Need better "chicken loop" - the velcro strap that goes round the foot. The velcro is insufficient to hold them in place. The pair I borrowed had one of the velcro pads on the wrong side, requiring the strap be twisted ninety degrees. Not good - mobius strips do not occur in nature.

More padding on the calf.

Better buckle system for both calf and foot which doesn't slip, and doesn't require "tying off" to prevent slippage. A buckle which can be tightened, and which stays tight.

Burlier strap beneath the foot less prone to abrasion.

Perhaps the triangle should go a little higher, right up to the base of the hook. There are a couple inches of bar tacking that could probably be shortened.

Pete,

I think you got confused between Marde and myself? Somehow I can't follow your post at all...

Sober up and try again.

Ooops, confused Marde with Moof. Duh. Edits as per above.

Hey Pete thanks for the suggestion,
but I'm too lazy to change it, for me it worked well for me for about 80 pitches by now.
With my stiff approachshoes it's comfy enough.
But I think you're right the bigger (longer) the triangle the less pressure on the sides of your feet.

I need the green cord to make it adjustable with a clove hitch.
I keep that loop close to my ankle with the black strap, and that's the only thing I'd like to improve.
Maybe with a strap right over and arround the foot.

One thing on mine which I really like is the buckle, maybe well worth copying (unlike the footloop)

I would have to agree with Moof, that I do not see a design flaw in his set-up outside the loog for the foot. That needs to be addressed.

Pete, you are correct on the basics of structures, but we are not discussing rigid structures in which your case best fits. This is more in the realm of dynamics then basic physics. The straight line Moof has to the Foot Loop is doubled up and sewn. I would bet that the holding power of his straight line, to Trango's foot Loop would be pretty damn close to the same, not to mention you would never load it enough to break either of them while aiding.

However, the loop at the bottom of the straight line, where the foot loop passes, is suseptable to where, might want to re-think that for where and tear.

Looks comfy for the most part.

Aside from that The stongest shape there is is a Perfect Circle. However, this is only on concern to carrying load from above our from outside, Tunnels, arches, etc. Triangles are the best for spans, trusses, etc. Class closed.

Ian - it's all Big Wall Theory, until you stand in the bloody things, and start climbing.

A circular foot loop squishes your foot, and it hurts. A triangular foot loop, with its apex directly beneath the hook, does not. It is not about "holding" power, for virtually anything will hold you and support your weight. It's about "camming" power, the ability to get high over your hook on overhanging terrain, and to do so more easily than in traditional aid ladders.

The main benefit of Russkies is the ability to stand tall using a knee-foot camming action, similar to what you get in high-topped downhill ski boots anchored on a ski with bindings. By extending a single strand below the hook for *any* distance to a circular loop [Moof's original design, which I tried] does not give you the mechanical advantage and the "camming" advantage. While it works, it does not work anywhere near as well as the Trango design, nor is it comfortable.

Another drawback of the single strand below the hook is its torsional instability - you need two points of support going up to the hook, or your foot can twist, which again makes the design less effective. That's actually a huge problem with both the designs noted above, and what I referred to when I said to build it out of triangles, not straight lines and circles.

The Trango design - except for the above-noted shortcomings - works extremely well.

There is no way to explain or prove these things - the only way you can tell is if you go climb a few pitches and see. Put a Trango stirrup on one leg, and another design on another. Until you have done this, it is difficult to tell what's best. However I've climbed hundreds of pitches in these things, and somehow managed to barely get an engineering degree, so I do know a little of what I speak. But I am a better climber than engineer.

Totally, agree and forgot to add that last time, that the circular loop looks painful with out even having to use it. It also seems easier to construct the Trango loop as well. Your input is right on, and if I was in the business of making these I would put your input to work.

I totally agree to the bigger triangle beeing more comfy.
But I totally fail to understand what this does to the leverage and topstep ability; even if it has less torsion stabiltity.
It's for sure less comfy but I haven't used the trango system so can't compare the two.
Only thing I can tell you that I never had any problems standing in the top rings with my setup.

Which is built like it is mainly because I's easy to make.
(no sewing, no buckles other than the ones on the old harness parts)

OK, low interest, the answer I was looking for.

Marde,

You would have to try to two designs to know. If you're ever in Yosemite during the spring or fall wall seasons, lemme know, and I'll let you fondle and borrow them so you can see for yourself.

So here is what I have in mind for the new style. I do not have my padding yet, so obviously these are unpadded. The rash guard is 1.5" fairly thick webbing that slides on the 1" webbing, and is removable/replaceable. Chicken strap is same as the previous stirrup style. The buckle strap to to the foot is longer than I wanted (just cuz these are the first pair int he style I've made). It works perfect for me, but would certainly be lousy for anyone with much shorter legs than me.

Because of excess wear at of the webbing on the cinch style buckles I was using, I've switched those back to double back style ones. It's harder to get them snug, but the webbing will last longer. Due to the apparent very low interest, I'm just making a couple pairs for friends this winter.

So anyway, if anyone wants details for making their own ones I'll work on making open source directions over on bigwalls.com in the coming weeks. For now, it's off to Jtree for a couple weeks! Woohoo!

One last ping for this winter season. $80/pair, and I have the materials to make maybe 4 pairs.

New this season:
- Padding is a stiffer more resilient polyethylene closed cell foam.
- Canadian Assassin requested foot loop, of a shape worthy for bridge design.
- 1.5" thick webbing rash guard for the foot
- Same spiffy chicken strap keeping your foot secure as last year. Minimal hassle, very secure, and nothing around your ankle.

Here are the test pair after a few pitches and lots of jugging. I still don't see what Pete is all bent out of shape about, but the Russian single strap design is out, an the Trango/Ural Sport big'ol golden gate inspired triangular loop is in (oh wait, no triangles on that bridge, maybe I-35 bridge inspired?).

Ok, that design'll work!

Please email me your address, and I'll send mine back for a retrofit. Nice workmanship.

Hey Moof,
I will pony up for a pair of these babies you just tell me where and how much. I am serious please let me know if you will make me a pair.
Thanks, Scott

Moof
Let me know--I'm probably interested in getting a pair.
Thanks!

PM'ed you both. For anyone else who's interested:

So here's the deal: Price is $80/pair of cuffs plus shipping.

I need your calf circumference measurement so I can size the padding to match your calf (measure just below the knee where they will ride, preferably in whatever pants or lack of pants you'll be aiding in). Most folks are in the 14-16" range. I leave the tail extra long, so you can easily adjust them -2" to +4" from whatever number you give me.

I have Yellow, Orange, and Red webbing on hand, so tell me what color you want for your right and left foot. I am ordering more Blue since both the local shops are plumb out, and have been for a fricking month, so I can also do Blue, but it'll be a few days before I have it on hand.

Once I have them done I'll take pictures and email them to you. At that point if you are happy with the pics I'll ship them out, and you can send me a check or paypal me $80 plus $5 shipping at the same time (unless you live somewhere goofy and it's much more than that).

Typically I can bang these out within a week, but it may be up to 2 weeks depending on how crazy life is. If it's looking longer then that I'll email you a heads up.

Seann,

Those photos and design improvements are really superb. You should post those photos up in the Russian Aiders thread over at McTopo so everyone else can see them.

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…

Cheers,
Pete