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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Feb 8, 2008
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

So, I've tried for years now to balance running and climbing and I have to say that I have never really found the balance.

Being a runner is about going out for a run 5 or 6 days a week. This leaves me running on climbing days and I either don't have time or more likely I don't have the energy to do both. I've found that while I'm running, my strength and flexibility seem to go down.

Yet, I want to be a runner. I never feel as healthy as I do when I'm running, but I still want to climb a lot. Does anyone have any tips to help balance the two?


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By Christopher Jones
From Denver, Colorado
Feb 8, 2008
Climbing So Wild at Thunder Ridge photo by Kevin McLaughlin.

I often run and boulder at the same time. I'll where approach shoes to have some good rubber. I have several routes in the South Platte with good fun crack problems all over the place. I'll run between each problem maintaining a high heart rate while on the rock.


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Feb 8, 2008
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

Jed Pointer wrote:
Settle with 1/2 marathon condition - maybe 10-20 miles per week, depending on the season. Training for anything more cuts too far into my climbing - both in time and conditioning. I've cycled through a lot of different activities, with my time. Just have to decide what makes you happy that particular year and go for it.


Would 10-20 miles per week be sufficient half marathon mileage? Last fall, I wanted to do a half, but I thought I needed more miles so I tried to up it to 30, but with climbing three days a week, I couldn't sustain this level. I felt like I was neither climbing well nor running well. So, climbing won out.

Bob, that's an incredible amount of activity. How many days per week did you climb?


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By abc
Feb 8, 2008

I run an hour every day, but at a pace that is never more than 75% MaxHr but most of my runs are around 70%. As long as I keep this work load, my climbing doesn't seem to be too affected.

The problem for most people with this pace is that it feels way too slow. But with time, you will get faster at the same level of effort (you should see a small improvement about every 8 weeks). But, as soon as I try to up the mileage or intensity, my climbing really starts to suffer.

I don't have any research to back this up, but I always thought that from a evolutionary standpoint, your body is going to try heal the large muscles groups(legs, back) first and the smallest muscles groups(the forearms) last. I am sure someone is going to show research here to prove me wrong, but it has always felt like this from my expeirence.


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By Tico
Feb 8, 2008

20 miles a week is plenty for a reasonable (1:10 to 1:20) half-marathon. I've run sub-2:36 marathons on 45 miles a week. Just make sure to get in a half-dozen quality workouts on the track every month, a couple of longer runs, and fill in the rest with tempo stuff.

Story goes that Jim Dunn would run 5 or 10 miles in the morning before climbing all day.

I really enjoy a nice jog after a hard day cragging, and I find it helps with forearm recovery.


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Feb 8, 2008
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

Tico wrote:
20 miles a week is plenty for a reasonable (1:10 to 1:20) half-marathon. I've run sub-2:36 marathons on 45 miles a week. Just make sure to get in a half-dozen quality workouts on the track every month, a couple of longer runs, and fill in the rest with tempo stuff. Story goes that Jim Dunn would run 5 or 10 miles in the morning before climbing all day. I really enjoy a nice jog after a hard day cragging, and I find it helps with forearm recovery.


This is really heartening. I guess I always came from the school higher mileage is necessary for longer races. I would run 45/week for 5K races. I guess I wasn't training smart.

I can't seem to keep my leg flexibility up when I'm doing even a little bit of running. I stretch a bit before and a lot after my runs, but this doesn't seem to help much. Any tips?


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By Ian F.
From Phx
Feb 8, 2008

Yeah I would have to agree, it is always amazing what the body is capable of. My brother with no training, and after a night of drinking ran a 1/2 marathon, and then drove to ouray the next day for Ice Climbing.

Anyway, Stretching is the key for me. Running should help loosen you up, but you need to stretch before and after. Good long stretches. I also walk the last 1/2 mile or so to cool down, and work out the kinks. I have also found the calves get tight after a run, and I started doing jumpropes afterwards. Just until I lose coordination. After a while it gets easier, but I felt as if it always made my calves and legs a little looser.

Another good one is the hang board. While cooling down, just hang for a bit and turn your torso back and forth. I think it may help stretch the bod out after pounding it along the trail. Maybe not but it feels damn good, and helps build forearm endurance. And then there is swimming for rest days. It works the whole body, and really helps with overall movement. Oh exercise. I love it!


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By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Golden, CO
Feb 8, 2008
Lone goat..

Trail running is totally key for my climbing levels, but I keep it to 3 or 4 miles at a time and usually on non climbing days. During tiathalon season, I can usually kick it up a notch but prefer the short and easy thing because I don't see a few miles, a few times a week as interfering with the rest of my activities. Once an activity becomes a pain in the ass instead of an asset, I back off. When I was younger I could run and climb all the time seamlessly, now I climb about as hard, but just run less (also because I have to work) and still get mostly the same benefits. I agree with you that being in good running shape has alot of satisfaction going for it.


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By Tico
Feb 8, 2008

Jay Knower wrote:
This is really heartening. I guess I always came from the school higher mileage is necessary for longer races. I would run 45/week for 5K races. I guess I wasn't training smart. I can't seem to keep my leg flexibility up when I'm doing even a little bit of running. I stretch a bit before and a lot after my runs, but this doesn't seem to help much. Any tips?


High mileage is a necessity for being competitive at 10K and up; in fact I'd posit the ability to withstand hundreds of 120+ mile weeks is the key to winning marathons.

If you want to run at relatively pedestrian paces (6 min/mi or so), you don't need to run all that much, especially if you've been an endurance athlete in the past.

Also, check out Beryl Bender Birch's "Power Yoga for Runners" book/dvd. Yoga is a major help for running faster, as it helps with recovery and what should be the only variable in how fast you run (stride length).


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By Michael Schneiter
From Glenwood Springs, CO
Feb 9, 2008
Goofin' on the Grand after soloing the Upper Exum with my wife.

Running mileage appears to be more and more of an individual thing. Last weekend I was at a track coaching clinic and many of the clinic speakers were Olympic medal winners, Olympic Trials participants, and in general, elite runners. They reaffirmed that in describing how some of them ran low mileage and preferred quality over quantity. An Olympic bronze medalist in the 5K or 10K (?) said his mileage was never higher than 45 miles, which considering the level, is not very high. It's known that there are several elite marathoners who are having great results on 70 miles a week instead of the traditional 100-150 that many elite marathoners typically ran. There's great debate in coaching circles about the appropriate number of miles people should be running and from my experience, it's very individual and the quality is more important than the quantity.

I climb and run fairly seriously myself. I do a number of races each year, up to the 50 mile distance and I climb 125 days a year or more. For me, I have long struggled to balance the two because of time and the physical limitations of my body. At one time I only focused on one sport at a time and realistically, that's probably the way to maximize your potential in each sport. When I was running at a high level in college, I found that climbing did things to my upper body that was counterproductive to what I was doing in running and hurt my performance. Consequently, I abstained from climbing during the cross country and track seasons.

Today, I am unwilling to give up either but I still want to do reasonably well at each. Hence, I basically set priorities or goals for myself each day and focus on quality running mileage. Hence, if I'm going to run and climb on the same day, I realize that I can't have a huge running day and a huge climbing day and do well at both. But, I can do an easy, recovery run and have a good climbing day. Or, if I have a long, hard run then my climbing day may be focused on fitness (such as climbing laps in the gym) or taking time to develop new routes. Hence, I schedule myself to have days where I am focused on a running workout or a climbing day and try not to mix the two.

And, reiterating what some others have said, consider what your goal is for running and select a high quality workout plan. You don't have to run a lot of miles to produce good results. I coach high school cross country and from my experience and from research, there's a lot to be said about quality over quantity. Hope that helps.


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By Michael Schneiter
From Glenwood Springs, CO
Feb 9, 2008
Goofin' on the Grand after soloing the Upper Exum with my wife.

Jay Knower wrote:
This is really heartening. I guess I always came from the school higher mileage is necessary for longer races. I would run 45/week for 5K races. I guess I wasn't training smart. I can't seem to keep my leg flexibility up when I'm doing even a little bit of running. I stretch a bit before and a lot after my runs, but this doesn't seem to help much. Any tips?


As far as flexibility goes, I have long been interested in the debate about runners and flexibility going back to my college days when the trainers would talk about how none of us runners could touch our toes. Arturo Barrios, the great runner from Mexico with world records, etc., said that he never stretched once in his long running career. And, he said if anyone could find five elite runners who can touch their toes, then maybe, he would consider changing his stance on stretching. That being said, I think flexibility is more important for climbing than running and it's still something to be addressed. I guess it's just food for thought.


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By abc
Feb 9, 2008

Michael Schneiter wrote:
I coach high school cross country and from my experience and from research, there's a lot to be said about quality over quantity.


I know this is the constant debate.

But can you name 10 Olympic medalists in the last 40 or 50 years at the 10k or 42k who ran less than 100 miles per week?

Can you name 10 Division I XC or track programs that are nationally competitive who run low mileage?

And even on the high school level here in the state, how many of the best programs have mileage profiles greater than the school they regularly beat? Here, I would have to admit there are a few HS programs doing this, but the physiology of a teenager runner is not really understood all that well yet, and probably never well since each of them are all over the place developmentally. But even at this level, the best programs in the nation, on average, are running more miles.


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By Jon Sinclair
From Fort Collins, CO
Feb 9, 2008

I was a professional runner through the eighties and early nineties with personal bests of 61:48 at the half marathon, 46:30 at 10 miles, and 13:35 at 5000m. Now at 50 I'm a lot slower as a runner and mediocre as a climber (5.10, barely). I also coach runners from the Olympic level to absolute beginners... so I think this is one "climbing" topic I can comment on.
First, balance is not the way to improve in any one sport. Being VERY good at running, or climbing, requires monastic type focus. I agree with Michael, climbing won't make you a better runner. Running, however, can help your climbing when you're working on conditioning. Doing it as part of a serious quality phase of climbing is not a good idea.
As for the discussion on mileage... what we're realy talking about is aerobic conditioning and efficiency. While weekly mileage volume is only one factor, doing a lot of work at an aerobic level is still best obtained by the miles of trials and trials of miles. I know of very few successful distance runners who reached a world class level off of less than 70 miles per week. In fact, I can only think of one. Most everyone I knew was running more than 80 miles per week and the vast majority trained at over 100 per week during at least half the year. I knew of people doing 140 per week as a regular training volume. I could site you many examples. True, it's an individual thing and some people need more volume than others, and there will always be athletes willing to do way more than necessary, but the basic philosophy that's been around since Lydiard in the 60's is still the proven method.
I wish I had good advice for you Jay... but it's really about staying healthy and fit. A little running is the most efficient way of doing that. Four or five days a week of 30-40 minutes is a reasonable level. If you want to improve your running, then the degree to which you want to do that will require more and more. You want to run a really good (for you) 1/2 marathon? Then you have to be capable of doing an 18 mile long run and at least 50 miles per week... 70 would be better, if you're capable of safely doing the miles. If it's all about being a better climber, then the running has to be secondary and eliminated when you're really getting ready to send 5.15.
Perhaps the best route is to cycle your training in and out of both sports so that they support each other.


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By Chris Duca
Administrator
From Havertown, PA
Feb 9, 2008
Finishing up Elusive Dream at the King Wall.  Adirondacks, NY.

Hey Jay--

I thought I should give my 2 cents about the tricky balance between climbing and running. Running is as much a part of my life as climbing is, sometimes more. I run several ultras a year and a few marathons, plus assorted other races. My trick to maintaining the balance so as to not burnout on either or feel like I'm undertraining, is to work in a couple of multi-sport days a week. This is especially rewarding during the summer and early fall when the sun is warm in the morning. I'll get up, go on a 10k trail run prior to hitting the crag, or if I'm heading over to the Dacks, I'll bring some trail shoes and shorts and cut my day short by an hour or two, just so I can go on a nice 5 to 10k run post climb. I don't mind if the run is pre- or post- climbing, as long as I'm running...it's a good way to cleanse your mind of the day of climbing, especially if it was stressful.

When school is out, I'll climb 4 or 5 days a week, and on my rest days, I'll go on my high mileage runs (usually 12 to 15 miles) in the morning or late afternoon. Road running is the bain of my existence, so I try to limit that as much as possible! However, while teaching, I'll usually run prior to school, then save a weekend day for a long trail run.

By the way, there are some really nice trail races over here that you may be interested in doing this spring and summer. Shoot me an email if you are interested.


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By Chris Duca
Administrator
From Havertown, PA
Feb 9, 2008
Finishing up Elusive Dream at the King Wall.  Adirondacks, NY.

I've totally heard of that race and its reputation for being a bonafide sufferfest, but unfortunately I have never run the thing. It is the same weekend at the Jay Mountain Marathon @ Jay Peak Resort in Vermont, and I run that every year. I'm moving to the Pacific Northwest this summer with my wife, and am quickly going to be in the market to find some grueling trail races up there (Washington and Oregon). If you know of any, send me the details, please!!


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Feb 9, 2008
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

Jon Sinclair wrote:
I was a professional runner through the eighties and early nineties with personal bests of 61:48 at the half marathon, 46:30 at 10 miles, and 13:35 at 5000m. Now at 50 I'm a lot slower as a runner and mediocre as a climber (5.10, barely). I also coach runners from the Olympic level to absolute beginners... so I think this is one "climbing" topic I can comment on. First, balance is not the way to improve in any one sport. Being VERY good at running, or climbing, requires monastic type focus. I agree with Michael, climbing won't make you a better runner. Running, however, can help your climbing when you're working on conditioning. Doing it as part of a serious quality phase of climbing is not a good idea. As for the discussion on mileage... what we're realy talking about is aerobic conditioning and efficiency. While weekly mileage volume is only one factor, doing a lot of work at an aerobic level is still best obtained by the miles of trials and trials of miles. I know of very few successful distance runners who reached a world class level off of less than 70 miles per week. In fact, I can only think of one. Most everyone I knew was running more than 80 miles per week and the vast majority trained at over 100 per week during at least half the year. I knew of people doing 140 per week as a regular training volume. I could site you many examples. True, it's an individual thing and some people need more volume than others, and there will always be athletes willing to do way more than necessary, but the basic philosophy that's been around since Lydiard in the 60's is still the proven method. I wish I had good advice for you Jay... but it's really about staying healthy and fit. A little running is the most efficient way of doing that. Four or five days a week of 30-40 minutes is a reasonable level. If you want to improve your running, then the degree to which you want to do that will require more and more. You want to run a really good (for you) 1/2 marathon? Then you have to be capable of doing an 18 mile long run and at least 50 miles per week... 70 would be better, if you're capable of safely doing the miles. If it's all about being a better climber, then the running has to be secondary and eliminated when you're really getting ready to send 5.15. Perhaps the best route is to cycle your training in and out of both sports so that they support each other.


Jon, I remember seeing a picture of you in Runner's World, except you weren't running; you were climbing. This was long before I was a climber and I have to credit that picture for introducing me to the sport of climbing. It is an honor that you responded to my question.

When it comes down to it, my running is a clear supplement to my climbing. I've been pretty focused on climbing lately yet my athletic roots are certainly in running. I guess I just need running in my life to some extent, despite it being secondary to my climbing. Maybe I can step up my running a bit when the weather for climbing isn't as conducive and then focus on climbing during the season.

You have echoed what I think I kind of knew anyway: that in order to be good at a sport, you need to be focused on that sport. It is too optimistic to think that I could both train for a half-marathon and climb hard. As I've found in the past, and as you've reinforced, it's not really possible to do both at a high level at the same time. Thanks for confirming this for me. It helps me to prioritize a bit more.


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By Peter Spindloe
From North Vancouver, BC
Feb 9, 2008
Starting the fourth class downclimb.  Photo by Ted. August 2007.

Chris Duca wrote:
I'm moving to the Pacific Northwest this summer with my wife, and am quickly going to be in the market to find some grueling trail races up there (Washington and Oregon). If you know of any, send me the details, please!!


If you don't mind traveling a bit for your races, here are two good ones in BC:

The Knee Knacker (full name is the Knee Knackering North Shore Trail Run) in Vancouver is a real classic. 50km (30mi) with 8000 feet of ascent and descent from Horseshoe Bay to Deep Cove in North Vancouver. I haven't done the race, but I have run every section and did the first 3/4 with some friends who were training for the race. I probably should have done it since I did the training with them, but I hadn't signed up. More info here.

The Rubble Creek Classic offers one of the most scenic runs anywhere. It's just south of Whistler and covers 26km with a 3000ft ascent and a brutal 4000 foot descent on fast switchbacks. The middle section is a mostly level traverse of a volcanic plain that feels like how I imagine the Atacama desert. Info here.


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By Terry Kieck
Feb 10, 2008

Hi Jay,

Good to see your still interested in your roots - running! Its been a tough winter in Wisco - 3 more inches and its the snowiest winter in history.

There has been a lot of good advice given out on this thread. Most of the following may have already been stated but I'll throw in my 2 cents. I know you've been waiting for it!

I tried to have the best of both worlds the last few years by trying to hit my climbing goals of climbing over 100 days a year, climbing hard while still improving and training for marathons and trail ultras. What I learned was I can't do it with my current strategy and I learned the hard way with an overuse injury that lead to surgery hurting both activities.

I've always felt the two activities do complement each other as long as the emphasis is kept to only one - for example, running only to stay thin and fit to climb hard. The first decade of my climbing, I ran moderate 20-25 miles a week and I was able to commit a great deal of time to climbing and progressed through climbing grades. But in the last few years with the change of emphasis toward running (my first obsession in HS and College) my climbing has suffered. I was maintaining my climbing level but had stopped progressing and then gained the injury (I'm in denial about aging so I know that can't be the reason I've stopped progressing!)

In your last post you stated, "When it comes down to it, my running is a clear supplement to my climbing." and "Maybe I can step up my running a bit when the weather for climbing isn't as conducive and then focus on climbing during the season." This should be a good approach and let me suggest a plan I wish I would have tried and will if I can run again someday.

I think a good training mix would be to pick what is most important in each discipline each week and make sure you are fresh for those days and it is the only activity of the day. For example, it could be redpoint day in climbing and the long run for half marathon training. Days that you want to train or just work a hard route could be combo days with a run before or after the climbing. I've climbed very well after a run so I like the combo days. I think it is still important to have one day of complete rest each week. Here is a sample week with climbing and half marathon training. Climbing 3 days and running 4.

Monday - Rest day
Tuesday- Speed work 6-8 miles
Wednesday - easy 4 mile run and endurance climbing day or bouldering circuit
Thursday - Moderate / tempo run day 6 miles
Friday - climb - redpoint day
Saturday - climb - work new routes since you sent the project on Friday!
Sunday - Long run 10-15

During your peak climbing season you could take the intensity level down in running and vise-versa as you stated. If you're feeling fatigued take another rest day - don't feel you have to get everything in. I learned the hard way. Listen to your body, it will tell you when you need a break.

I could ramble on forever. Climbing and running have taken me to some very beautiful places and I hope to get back to them both soon. I'm still searching for the perfect mix. Its a life long journey. If you find the mix let me know!

Terry


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By Jay Knower
Administrator
From Campton, NH
Feb 10, 2008
Technosurfing, Rumney. Photo by Seth Hamel.

Terry,

I've noticed that you have been able to do both at a high level for a long time. I'm sure you'll come back from your injury with a vengeance. Thanks for the weekly breakdown. It helps me visualize how doing both would work out logistically. And Chris your idea of an easy run after climbing sounds good too.

I have gotten a lot of great feedback and I have a lot to think about. I think it's probably possible to do "maintenance mileage" and still hold true to my climbing goals. There seems to be some agreement that running seriously will probably cut into climbing in some ways. I guess how much depends on the individual--I found it has significantly for me. I'm just not sure if I'm willing sacrifice my climbing for running--yet.


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By Heather Haynes
Apr 9, 2008
yep!! that pretty much sums it up!

I've been wondering about this question for a while now...thanks for the post Jay and excellent advise everyone!


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By erik wellborn
From manitou springs
Apr 10, 2008
Top of Bridalveil, feelin good

I guess you have to decide,Am I a runner who climbs, or a climber who runs? I've never been able to do more than 20 miles a week(trails) before it starts to really affect my climbing ability. About 4 one hour runs a week is great for my cardio/climbing but it sure wont help me set any records on the race course.... Good luck on finding the right balance


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By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Apr 10, 2008
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "Alan Nelson's Bulging Belly" (5.10, X) on the Lost and Found Flatiron. Belayer is Mark Ruocco. Photo by Bill Wright, 10/06.

Jay Knower wrote:
Yet, I want to be a runner. I never feel as healthy as I do when I'm running, but I still want to climb a lot. Does anyone have any tips to help balance the two?


I'm certainly no elite runner, or even very competative at that, not since getting into climbing. So take this for consideration and not advice. But I am reasonably fast and do race, so I can measure progress.

It has helped me the years I've taken to morning solo scrambles in the flatirons. Although not hard climbing, at least I was doing it after getting beat down on the jog up. I also intentionally made approaches with my pack on aerobic. I found on summers that I did this that even though I was never 'running' that I would do ~5 min 1500m's "off the couch" (~5:15 mile) without even knowing my pace, so apparently it does translate to something. But that's more like speed work. My 5K's were not fast (19-20min) and my 10k's were slow (~43 min). So to say it translated to endurance, well--- no. But it did help with speed. Probably becuase they were steep hills. I htink strength has more to do with speed than endurance.

Obviously you don't have the flatirons there, but do you have some hills with some mellow aerobic solo circuits above them? I think it helps me with speed and 'short' endurance.


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By Legs Magillicutty
From Littleton
Apr 10, 2008
Function over fashion.  My newest pair of climbing shoes.

Heather, maybe the key to striking that balance is to first know what your goals are as a climber and a runner. I have no desire to race but I like to simply feel strong on my runs. As an asthmatic I never know what my run is going to be like. I only run trails and run about 20 miles per week. I typically run at lunch and have a few hours to recover before I climb. But much like you I feel that I am not as strong climbing after I run. I'm looking at modifying my diet and to see if there is anything I can do to speed up that recovery process after I run. Maybe it could be something simple like stretching. I'll let you know how it goes.

Another thing you can look at that may already have been addressed (didn't read the entire thread) is to run less miles on the days that you are climbing. Or maybe have less aggressive runs on your climbing days. On your non-climbing days, run more but just make sure you give your body a chance to recover.

For someone like me finding that balance is easier because I'm a mere mediocre climber and a mediocre runner and I don't have many goals outside of just having fun and maintaining stregnth. Someone like Langston I can see where it would be almost impossible to find that balance because he holds himself to a much higher standard, thus having much differnt goals than I do.

Good luck!


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By Aerili
From Salt Lake City, UT
Apr 10, 2008
Get down from there! <br /> <br />May 2013 <br />Photo by Duc

Tracy Roach wrote:
...to see if there is anything I can do to speed up that recovery process after I run. Maybe it could be something simple like stretching.


Unfortunately, there is no evidence stretching improves recovery time. Its benefits lie in other areas, but speeding up the body's healing process isn't one of them.


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By Peter Franzen
Administrator
From Phoenix, AZ
Apr 10, 2008
Belay

Wow, I thought I was the only one who struggled to be both a runner and a climber.

Over the past 6 or 7 years I've gone through a cyclical pattern between running and climbing. I'll typically focus on climbing for 6-9 months, then focus on running for 3-6 months, then go back to climbing. When I try to run a lot (4-5 days a week) my climbing really suffers-- I'm a pretty slim build, and I have a hard time keeping muscle mass when I'm in good running shape.


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By KevinCO
From Loveland, CO
Apr 10, 2008

Has anyone ever entered the Mt. Marathon Race in Seward?

www.wildnatureimages.com/Mt.%20Marathon%20Race%203.htm


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