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Rumney new routing issue discussion.
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By ed esmond
Apr 12, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bonnie and Clyde

i'll agree the start was tricky. i'm not sure if it was because i actually had the wrong "beta" or the route was "less than clean..."

i don't mean to provoke, and i'm hoping people won't get too defensive, but...

when we "bolt a sport route," we are in effect, "murdering the impossible..."

the anti-bolt trad purists are correct, we are "permanently defacing the rock..." and we are "bringing the climb down to our level..."

personally, i think if we accept that fact, and drill the bolts, we are required to produce the best possible route we can.

if we are going to "murder the impossible," we should at least leave a "beautiful corpse..."

"bonnie and clyde" may be dead, but they ain't beautiful...

when i clipped the anchors, i was stranding in a forest of lichen. not exactly "beautiful."

I realize the fa'er may have spent a whole "half day" cleaning the route; but, it really deserves more...

again, i don't mean to be disrespectful. but, when you bolt a sport route, you have forever altered the climbing experience. that makes it the fa'ers responsibility to make it the best experience they can.

respectfully,

ed e


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By lee hansche
Administrator
From goffstown, nh
Apr 12, 2013
getting to the last jug before the top out

This post was originally a comment in Bonnie and Clyde

Thanks for your input Ed... im not offended at all... i have respect for you and your opinions...

I did the route ground up on gear and found it to have quite fun climbing but after cleaning it pretty well (about a half day admittedly) and leaving it for others i realized "others" were not going to do it... and it would become over grown... not because it wasn't fun but because it was a trad climb at rumney... so i put in more time cleaning (another 3 hours or so) and bolted it... What i left was pretty clean... the only part i couldn't get clear was the moss on the slab at the anchors (though i scrubbed hard and got most of it clean)... my thought was that now i had a route worth climbing so the traffic would wear down the moss and it would be all set... it hasn't seen as much action as i expected so it is starting to get grown in... i don't think it is up to me to go back to all of my climbs and re clean them... i have cleaned off many routes at rumney that have become over grown and need a little love... some are climbs you are credited with like Path of the righteous, sparking poodles, finland and more... we are a community and we work together on these things... I do not take bolting lightly and i agree that we are defacing the rock for our selfish purposes but i did a good job... its been years now since i cleaned it... if we all climb on it it will stay clean and fun...

i offer this not as a defense but an explanation because from your comments it would seem you don't know the way i am or the way i feel about climbing or developing...

cheers, Lee


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Apr 13, 2013
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

This post was originally a comment in Bonnie and Clyde

Ed's been mixing the chemicals and let his Mr. Hyde out ;)

Stuff grows back here in new England amazingly quickly, especially if it is down in the trees. I've found if you can get it immaculately clean, that will delay it some, but even that is no guarantee. Little bits of lichen and dirt act as a jump start. Blueberry bushes can refill cracks really quickly if not climbed regularly. Nobody can be expected to go back and tend their routes in perpetuity. That is where we as a community comes in. Ideally everyone would carry around a wire brush and brush up a route occasionally, even if it is a little at the base while they are hanging around..

Rumney is getting a little climbed out for new quality lines, but there are a bunch that people don't climb on because they need recleaning and maybe a little retroing of anchors and such. I am going to try to fix up at least a couple old routes for each new one I do here.


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By ed esmond
Apr 17, 2013

This post was originally a comment in Bonnie and Clyde

Hi Lee,

I appreciate your comments, but you don't need to explain or defend yourself to me. Actually, I need to apologize for sounding like a d!ck in this forum…

The correct thing was to have spoken with you in person.

Now it is my turn to try to explain:

Unfortunately, it wasn't "mixing the chemicals" suggested by Mark S. that caused me to revert to "Mr Hyde." It was reading too many posts on the internet that caused me to go bad…..

Recently, I've gotten on (or rapped down to look at) a bunch of the newer routes at Rumney. I think that many of them were not well done. I don't mean the climbing itself is bad, but the human activity done in opening up the climb was less than quality. There's a lack of thought and craftmanship in them and it has been bugging me.

Some examples from that one small crag:

-The whole cliff looks seriously "grid bolted." Admittedly, it is a sport crag, so almost by definition, it will be "grid bolted." But, it shouldn't look so "grid bolted."

-The slab with what appears to be randomly placed glue-ins.

-The crumbly "project" (that has a name, a grade and a couple "quality stars" before it was even climbed…) For a while, this "project" had a line of bolts placed 2 feet away from the bolts of an existing route. The last time Ilooked, the bolts from the existing route are gone.

-And the mossy top of "bonnie and clyde."

I don't believe what I wrote in my post was wrong; but, it was wrong to direct it at you. I should have made a new, separate post expressing my views on some of the recent new routing activity at Rumney.

Respetfully,

ed e


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By lee hansche
Administrator
From goffstown, nh
Apr 17, 2013
getting to the last jug before the top out

This post was originally a comment in Bonnie and Clyde

I couldn't agree more about the grid bolting and that route which was very poorly managed... as for some moss... it grows... i think you understand that and there for we are fighting the same fight... the reason i don't use glue ins is so that if the community does not like a route i put up it can be easily removed, patched and returned to its natural state over time...

thanks for your time in rewording your comment... keep fighting the good fight...
Lee


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Apr 18, 2013
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

This post was originally a comment in Bonnie and Clyde

Ed, Lee - Do you think some of these comments should be moved into a NE forum discussion? I think it points to an important discussion that needs to be made and maybe more Rumney developers will see it there.

Most of the really classic and obvious lines at Rumney have now been climbed, yet almost every square inch is fun in some way to climb/scramble on. We are at a point in Rumney's history were real thought and some restraint will need to be added to the zeal for new routing or things could quickly get really ugly. Non of us like to be told not to do something by some sort of authority, so it would be much better if we can come to a freely directed impetus of our own. I fully am in agreement with you Ed. It is a tough thing to have to tell a fellow climber that their creations are badly done and should be changed or removed, especially if they are friends who are obstinate. One should never ever bolt a route himself again IMO, but pick a line, clean it and have somebody else drill the holes for him. Almost every one of his routes has F'ed up bolt placements and usually twice as many as should be there.


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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Apr 18, 2013
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

Maybe it is time for us Rumney developers to make a special effort to ask around (more than just our couple usual buddies) if a perspective line we are all excited about will really be an improvement for the area and be willing to listen to some critiquing. Will another 1 or no star route be a good addition, or crowd out the lines that are already there? Might it be better to put the effort into cleaning up an old route and replacing bad hardware and anchors, or go find some other areas for new routing (like Sundown or Woodchuck for example)?


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By Jake D.
From Northeast
Apr 18, 2013

I was talking to Lee last night about the new "Crag" that went in recently next to upper vadar.. called "hail vadar" that seems like an unnecessary amount of cleaning for little gain. I agree with Lee that "at least it wasn't bolted" but I don't think every piece of rock needs to be scraped clean and named. I find Bradley's database bombing of craglets that are brush covered hikes vs actual rock climbing to be pretty annoying and only clutter the site. (but at least he leaves them natural/uncleaned)


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Apr 18, 2013
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

Been at this for 35 years so I will throw in my two cents. I believe there is a balance between when the route setter should stop cleaning. I have done my share of lichen brushing and I am sure it is nothing compared to what you do in the east.

I am not a fan of people who think the guy doing all the work needs to maintain the trails, hardware, and buff a climb until it shines. If the community thinks the climb is worth doing then traffic will keep it clean. On the other hand maybe the community should put a little more effort into helping with cleaning new routes other than just climbing them. This might lead to the climbs being more worthwhile.


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By 1Eric Rhicard
Apr 18, 2013
It is a good sized roof. Photo: Jimbo

I think if the bolts are badly placed you should talk to the developer and see if they will fix it. Most developers want to do a good job so that they and others will enjoy repeating the climb. If not, the community can move them when the developer dies.

As far as what should or should not be set up as a climb it isn't up to any one person or small group to decide. If it is not going to cause access issues leave them alone or protest by not climbing them.

I just bolted a route I top-roped 25 years ago. Years ago I was looking for longer things as was more of the standard. It is 35 feet long and I thought it was too short. It is still too short but it is now a fun short lead. Newer climbers often learn at gyms where a route may only be 35 feet long so they are not bothered by short at all. I stop at colored tape however.


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By Eric8
From Framingham
Apr 19, 2013

M Sprague wrote:
Maybe it is time for us Rumney developers to make a special effort to ask around (more than just our couple usual buddies) if a perspective line we are all excited about will really be an improvement for the area and be willing to listen to some critiquing. Will another 1 or no star route be a good addition, or crowd out the lines that are already there? Might it be better to put the effort into cleaning up an old route and replacing bad hardware and anchors, or go find some other areas for new routing (like Sundown or Woodchuck for example)?



I'm not a rumney developer and have only bolted one sport climb in my life but I 100% agree. It seems to me that there plenty of routes at rumney that are bolted that wouldn't be bolted at any other cliff. I know some of this is meant to help with crowding but these are not climbs I see people on. Adding new quality lines is okay if you can find them but are more moss prone 1 star routes needed? Rumney is probably 4-5th on my list of places to sport climb in NE and part of this is the overbolting, when the quality of orange crush and wamiea should make 1-2 on that list.

Finally, if developers are going to go to other cliffs looking for FAs, I ask that you don't use your Rumney eyes. Just because you bolt something at Rumney doesn't mean people will climb it at other cliffs. If your going to put the time and money into something as well as make permanent changes to the rock please only bolt quality routes. No 3 bolt choss climbs.


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By Jeffrey LeCours
From New Hampshire
Apr 19, 2013

Jake D. wrote:
(but at least he leaves them natural/uncleaned)


Also, Bradley lists them as single star or bombs. MP doesn't have a non-star system... so single star is basically that. I'd be surprised to find any of the Hail Vader climbs worth a star.


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