I think it makes sense for cragging areas like Indian Creek, RRG, most of the crags in Thailand. But I'd limit it to areas that really need better organization.

For example, I'm reading about routes in the Winds and RMNP in preparation for a trip out there but I know the names of the routes I want to do and having them in any specific order on MP won't help me a bit.

Even with many cragging areas, it won't make sense to order the routes L to R. What if the trail meets the wall on the right side? Will there be an option for climbs to be ordered R to L?

Finally, what about areas like Moore's Wall ? There are like 50 climbs listed for this crag but it hasn't been split up into different sectors. Having the routes in order would actually help one navigate the cliff line at a place like Moore's, especially since the guidebook leaves out a lot of climbs. But it doesn't make sense until someone goes in and creates areas within Moore's Wall (IE Hanging Gardens, Fire Wall, Circus Wall, Amphitheater, North End, etc).

I think it would help in some areas, but even then...

I would also like to see a scroll button for the routes so I can click on the first one and go directly to the next.

I like the idea! I wouldn't worry about crossing routes or which anchors to use; that will be in the route description. The start is the important issue in locating most climbs.

Maybe variations that share a start would warrant 7.1/a numbering system, comming next in the L-R title list. Administrators have the luxury of renumbering routes at any time it seems logical. (It's the beauty of of being on-line.)

I always search the photo section for a picture of the start if I'm not sure where a route is. An overview of some kind would be killer.

Is there a way to organize routes that others have submitted? am I missing something obvious?

Ya I agree B. I think the option to sort all routes when submitting a new one is extremely necessary and with out this option the sorting is fairly useless.

If you find a crag/area that could use a L->R sorting and can actually work with that method (some don't) but is not sorted, start the sorting with whatever routes you have submitted and then send the admin for the crag/area a list of L->R.

Every sort starts with one route. Thanks!

...and for areas with no admin?

I've been thinking about this a lot.



Solution - Let routes be sortable by anyone, so that the common wisdom of route location will sort out routes properly.


The routes are where they are, and this will let passionate locals police their local crags and properly sort any routes that are added and mislocated.


Don't require the routes to be sorted when submitted, but allow routes to be sorted by all.



I think it's your most elegant solution.

YES for sorting by location (L to R, R to L, or whatever). I think spatial location for routes is as useful as the location of the wall itself, when it comes to a web-application.

Higher standards for data submissions will only make the site better even if there are issues. MP should feel no sympathy for people who are deterred by simple quality control.

To skirt the issue of adding routes after they are already sorted allow anyone to edit the route location (or everything for that matter). Beyond the database challenges for MP I think a more wiki style approach will support evolution of the site much better than just pushing it on Administrators. Especially for areas with less active admins. Admins should only have to monitor quality not actively edit peoples careless entries. A physical location bypasses the need to interpret some of the really bad descriptions submitted with the current system.

I think a reasonable first try as been made and the sort options make it livable for everyone.
As a guy who enters a lot of routes here in less than common areas though, it occurs to me to ask...

Why can't I go ahead and sort routes in an otherwise unsorted area? I enter one and it forces me to put it on the sorted side, but leaves the other 2-10 routes on the unsorted side and disallows me from doing anything about it. Seems silly.

I agree that the routes should be able to be sorted by anyone. The Thailand section is getting done VERY slowly. Since I don't trust myself to remember each crag perfectly, I have to use a guidebook when I sort the routes. It would make sense to let people who are either in Thailand or fresh off their trip to sort if they wish. Afterwards, as an admin, I can go back and organize sub areas and fix mistakes.

I'm for sorting l-r or r-l. I think requiring a route to be sorted at time of submission and requiring either a beta map or photo is the way to go...it ups the quality of data on the site and if you don't have those two pieces of info then you shouldnt submit.

Sadly, the reason we can't open up sorting to everyone is because of sabotage. Inevitibly, some disgruntedled user will trash the database.

And before you say "limit it only to users who have submitted lots of content", numerous times we've had users sabotage vast amounts of their own content.

It's the sad truth.

For a wiki style system to work, you need to have a history available with a list of who changed what, and a way to undo changes. If history is not kept now (which I suspect it is not) then this change would be a lot of work. Might be worthwhile in the long term, as it would also deal with issues of sabotage like the ones you mentioned as well as facilitating more liberal update policies.

Here's what I think. In some cases left to right or right to left would be very beneficial. In some cases it wouldn't. I think that in more scenarios than not, right to left or the opposite, as opposed to alphabetical would better serve most people in most places. However, having said that, I would be psyched to see an app either way and whichever way it ended up, I'd deal with it. Thanks for asking though. Good stuff.

This:

I understand these concerns but if someone "trashes" the database someone else will clean it up. I just don't understand the need for hand holding here. Forget about versioned editing if MP doesn't want to deal with that headache. I definitely think that WE need to be able to make improvements to content. And sorting is incredibly important when it comes to making MP more functional.

This site is an example of how unique the climbing community is regarding crowd sourced collaborative data sharing. MP just created a simple venue and climbers went crazy. We all care and we all want to contribute. If someone makes a mistake someone else will fix it. That is the essence of crowd sourcing. I have never seen any community as committed to knowledge sharing as MP users. So don't be scared.

I belong to a site that let's you edit user-submitted data. There are over 10,000 users, but only those who pay for the paid portion of the site (with more features, etc.) can edit the data. It's only $20/year, but even that keeps some level of riff raff away. In the couple years I've been on the site I'm not aware of a single instance of running amok (knock on wood).

Also I agree with the previous poster that maintaining a history of the changes so that the admin can rollback to a previous save-point is essential.

ok, route sorting is a big plus!

but now, is there a way to sort areas too?