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Route Sorting - MP wants your opinion
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By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Jun 4, 2011
El Chorro
I think it makes sense for cragging areas like Indian Creek, RRG, most of the crags in Thailand. But I'd limit it to areas that really need better organization.

For example, I'm reading about routes in the Winds and RMNP in preparation for a trip out there but I know the names of the routes I want to do and having them in any specific order on MP won't help me a bit.

Even with many cragging areas, it won't make sense to order the routes L to R. What if the trail meets the wall on the right side? Will there be an option for climbs to be ordered R to L?

Finally, what about areas like Moore's Wall ? There are like 50 climbs listed for this crag but it hasn't been split up into different sectors. Having the routes in order would actually help one navigate the cliff line at a place like Moore's, especially since the guidebook leaves out a lot of climbs. But it doesn't make sense until someone goes in and creates areas within Moore's Wall (IE Hanging Gardens, Fire Wall, Circus Wall, Amphitheater, North End, etc).

I think it would help in some areas, but even then...

M Sprague wrote:
There is something to be said for buying the damn guidebook instead of everybody always staring into a gadget 24/7.

FLAG
By Tradoholic
Jun 4, 2011
I would also like to see a scroll button for the routes so I can click on the first one and go directly to the next.

FLAG
By rob bauer
From Golden, CO
Jun 4, 2011
I like the idea! I wouldn't worry about crossing routes or which anchors to use; that will be in the route description. The start is the important issue in locating most climbs.

Maybe variations that share a start would warrant 7.1/a numbering system, comming next in the L-R title list. Administrators have the luxury of renumbering routes at any time it seems logical. (It's the beauty of of being on-line.)

I always search the photo section for a picture of the start if I'm not sure where a route is. An overview of some kind would be killer.

FLAG
By Sam Feuerborn
From Durango, CO
Oct 18, 2011
Castle Wood Canyon, May '09
Is there a way to organize routes that others have submitted? am I missing something obvious?

FLAG
By Boissal
From Small Lake, UT
Oct 18, 2011
Sam Feuerborn wrote:
Is there a way to organize routes that others have submitted? am I missing something obvious?

This.
It makes little sense to have the option to sort the one route you're posting when a crag already has 10 unsorted ones. Popular crags might eventually get organized but for most it will remain an unusable function. Unless you get the option of sorting everything when you submit a new route the idea isn't really going to take off. IMO of course.

FLAG
By Sam Feuerborn
From Durango, CO
Oct 18, 2011
Castle Wood Canyon, May '09
Ya I agree B. I think the option to sort all routes when submitting a new one is extremely necessary and with out this option the sorting is fairly useless.

FLAG
By Leo Paik
Administrator
From Westminster, Colorado
Oct 18, 2011
If you find a crag/area that could use a L->R sorting and can actually work with that method (some don't) but is not sorted, start the sorting with whatever routes you have submitted and then send the admin for the crag/area a list of L->R.

Every sort starts with one route. Thanks!

FLAG
By kBobby
From Spokane, WA
Oct 18, 2011
...and for areas with no admin?

FLAG
 
By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
Oct 18, 2011
Gunking
Sam Feuerborn wrote:
Ya I agree B. I think the option to sort all routes when submitting a new one is extremely necessary and with out this option the sorting is fairly useless.


This 1000 times. The sorting needs to be open to those who add routes at the very least.

FLAG
By Jonathan Steitzer
From midcoast, maine
Oct 18, 2011
I've been thinking about this a lot.



Solution - Let routes be sortable by anyone, so that the common wisdom of route location will sort out routes properly.


The routes are where they are, and this will let passionate locals police their local crags and properly sort any routes that are added and mislocated.


Don't require the routes to be sorted when submitted, but allow routes to be sorted by all.



I think it's your most elegant solution.

FLAG
By Wombat
From Boulder, co
Oct 18, 2011
Cutout from a larger map illustrating accessibilit...
YES for sorting by location (L to R, R to L, or whatever). I think spatial location for routes is as useful as the location of the wall itself, when it comes to a web-application.

Higher standards for data submissions will only make the site better even if there are issues. MP should feel no sympathy for people who are deterred by simple quality control.

To skirt the issue of adding routes after they are already sorted allow anyone to edit the route location (or everything for that matter). Beyond the database challenges for MP I think a more wiki style approach will support evolution of the site much better than just pushing it on Administrators. Especially for areas with less active admins. Admins should only have to monitor quality not actively edit peoples careless entries. A physical location bypasses the need to interpret some of the really bad descriptions submitted with the current system.

FLAG
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Oct 18, 2011
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "...
I think a reasonable first try as been made and the sort options make it livable for everyone.
As a guy who enters a lot of routes here in less than common areas though, it occurs to me to ask...

Why can't I go ahead and sort routes in an otherwise unsorted area? I enter one and it forces me to put it on the sorted side, but leaves the other 2-10 routes on the unsorted side and disallows me from doing anything about it. Seems silly.

FLAG
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
Oct 18, 2011
El Chorro
I agree that the routes should be able to be sorted by anyone. The Thailand section is getting done VERY slowly. Since I don't trust myself to remember each crag perfectly, I have to use a guidebook when I sort the routes. It would make sense to let people who are either in Thailand or fresh off their trip to sort if they wish. Afterwards, as an admin, I can go back and organize sub areas and fix mistakes.

FLAG
By Geir
From Tucson, AZ
Oct 18, 2011
Toofast
Ryan Williams wrote:
I agree that the routes should be able to be sorted by anyone. The Thailand section is getting done VERY slowly. Since I don't trust myself to remember each crag perfectly, I have to use a guidebook when I sort the routes. It would make sense to let people who are either in Thailand or fresh off their trip to sort if they wish. Afterwards, as an admin, I can go back and organize sub areas and fix mistakes.


I agree. Areas will be able to be sorted much more easily if anyone can do it.

FLAG
By freezeus
From Pittsfield, VT
Oct 18, 2011
I'm for sorting l-r or r-l. I think requiring a route to be sorted at time of submission and requiring either a beta map or photo is the way to go...it ups the quality of data on the site and if you don't have those two pieces of info then you shouldnt submit.

FLAG
By Andy Laakmann
Site Landlord
From Bend, OR
Oct 18, 2011
Racked and loaded... name that splitter behind me?...
Sadly, the reason we can't open up sorting to everyone is because of sabotage. Inevitibly, some disgruntedled user will trash the database.

And before you say "limit it only to users who have submitted lots of content", numerous times we've had users sabotage vast amounts of their own content.

It's the sad truth.

FLAG
 
By Wayne
From Superior, CO
Oct 18, 2011
For a wiki style system to work, you need to have a history available with a list of who changed what, and a way to undo changes. If history is not kept now (which I suspect it is not) then this change would be a lot of work. Might be worthwhile in the long term, as it would also deal with issues of sabotage like the ones you mentioned as well as facilitating more liberal update policies.

FLAG
By Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Oct 19, 2011
Got Milk? How about forearm pump? Tony leads "...
Andy Laakmann wrote:
Sadly, the reason we can't open up sorting to everyone is because of sabotage.

I'm not suggesting that we can re-sort anything, I'm just suggesting we can sort otherwise unsorted routes if an entire crag is unsorted at teh time of a new route submission.

FLAG
By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Oct 19, 2011
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Pea...
This:

Andy Laakmann wrote:
...numerous times we've had users sabotage vast amounts of their own content. It's the sad truth.


Taking your ball and going home syndrome.

FLAG
By Boissal
From Small Lake, UT
Oct 19, 2011
Andy Laakmann wrote:
Inevitibly, some disgruntedled user will trash the database

Seems like the amount of trashing would be limited to re-shuffling routes around... I'm not thinking about granting access to the route description/info to any user, just the sorting part. Maybe add an admin validation to the process so if an area appears sorted and one day everything is in shambles the local admin can just deny the changes and poof, fixed.

I think the fixture would be great for concentrated areas with piss poor descriptions (Utah>Wasatch Range>LCC>Hellgate>Metling Mud) where it's impossible to figure out which route is where based on the description. Someone with a topo (me?) could sort the routes and people could just go by rating. To fix this section now all the routes would need to be reassigned and someone would need to write descriptions. PITA.

FLAG
By Wombat
From Boulder, co
Oct 19, 2011
Cutout from a larger map illustrating accessibilit...
I understand these concerns but if someone "trashes" the database someone else will clean it up. I just don't understand the need for hand holding here. Forget about versioned editing if MP doesn't want to deal with that headache. I definitely think that WE need to be able to make improvements to content. And sorting is incredibly important when it comes to making MP more functional.

This site is an example of how unique the climbing community is regarding crowd sourced collaborative data sharing. MP just created a simple venue and climbers went crazy. We all care and we all want to contribute. If someone makes a mistake someone else will fix it. That is the essence of crowd sourcing. I have never seen any community as committed to knowledge sharing as MP users. So don't be scared.

FLAG
By TheIceManCometh
From Albany, NY
Oct 19, 2011
Chiller Pillar, Adirondacks
I belong to a site that let's you edit user-submitted data. There are over 10,000 users, but only those who pay for the paid portion of the site (with more features, etc.) can edit the data. It's only $20/year, but even that keeps some level of riff raff away. In the couple years I've been on the site I'm not aware of a single instance of running amok (knock on wood).

Also I agree with the previous poster that maintaining a history of the changes so that the admin can rollback to a previous save-point is essential.

FLAG
By Luc
Administrator
From Montreal
Oct 20, 2011
Mastigouche
ok, route sorting is a big plus!

but now, is there a way to sort areas too?

FLAG
By Leo Paik
Administrator
From Westminster, Colorado
Oct 20, 2011
Folks with climbingxxx.com and mountainproject.com have gone through lessons learned the hard way about how folks will capriciously sabotage data when they get mad. The same characteristics in individuals that drive folks to be able to climb some amazing things can drive folks to apply that same drive to ruin things for the rest of us. It's happened time and time again. A little fee like $X is unlikely to prevent this phenomenon. It's also a royal pain to undo some of these petulant actions for admins and site owners. We all have better things to do than to undo harmful things. Honestly, it's amazing all the time folks donate to doing things behind the scenes here.

So, that being said, if an area has no admin, contact an admin for a nearby area or contact one of the more active admins, collect the info thoroughly, ask politely, and be patient. If there is an admin for the area, contact that person. We'll get to it. Just remember most of us have spouses, kids, extended families, jobs, duties, other volunteer work, need sleep, and yes...our own climbing to do.

Sorting areas is a bit tougher. Some areas like canyons can be sorted downstream to upstream...like Clear Creek Canyon, Big Thompson Canyon, Boulder Canyon. Some crags can be sorted by cities/towns nearby. Others are tougher.

Peace.

FLAG
 
By Keith H. North
From Englewood, CO
Oct 20, 2011
A short M4 climb in the School Room @ Ouray
DO IT!


I live in Colorado and most of my areas are already sorted, It is a HUGE help!


DO IT!

FLAG


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