Rope hooking as a safety technique

Looking for comments on the safety/reliability of 'rope hooking' while leading. Recently started using it. The technique of pulling up a lead rope and hooking it over the pinky rest of a tool placed up high in order to get some rest and/or as a quick piece of 'pro'. Assuming one has an excellent stick w/the tool being used. I've aggressively tested it several dozen times in different ice conditions - not one failure.
I already know, "Yer gonna die!!" So, accepting that inevitability, is this a relatively reliable safe technique or, is it russian roulette that will surely, eventually have a bad ending?

if the ice tool has a load bearing pommel you can clip a quickdraw to it then clip the rope while the tool is placed. Place the screw then move the quickdraw from the ice tool to the ice screw.

If you're doing it for peace of mind while you place the screw i.e. you don't actually weight the rope, then I don't see any harm in it. But if you're sitting back on the rope (and no doubt sinking down a few feet esp. later in a long pitch) then you want to be very certain about the strength of the pinkie rest and the quality of the placement. And realize that many folks would consider that second case to be a form of aid and accuse you of not really leading the pitch cleanly.

Gunkiemike called it, if you use the rope to take a rest, you can't claim to have led the pitch cleanly without aid.
Great idea, if it'll keep you from falling off. Course if you sneeze, or shift your weight the wrong way... for sure I'd use this only as a last resort. Sketchy!!!
Often its smarter to downclimb to a decent stance and rest under your own power.

Gunkiemike wrote:If you're doing it for peace of mind while you place the screw i.e. you don't actually weight the rope, then I don't see any harm in it. But if you're sitting back on the rope (and no doubt sinking down a few feet esp. later in a long pitch) then you want to be very certain about the strength of the pinkie rest and the quality of the placement. And realize that many folks would consider that second case to be a form of aid and accuse you of not really leading the pitch cleanly.

It's ice climbing....it's all aid! ;)

Dan Beausoleil wrote:Looking for comments on the safety/reliability of 'rope hooking' while leading.

1. I have never seen any benefit to doing it myself; either I'm over my head and need to consider retreat or I'm in control and on the move.

2. I know plenty of good ice climbers and none of them use the technique.

3. I wouldn't consider it gear, and if I was going to fall I would want less rope out between me and my last screw.

tri-cameron wrote:if the ice tool has a load bearing pommel you can clip a quickdraw to it then clip the rope while the tool is placed. Place the screw then move the quickdraw from the ice tool to the ice screw.

Clip to your harness instead. That way if the tool does blow you have less rope out, additionally the rope is free to clip to your screw once placed before you continue moving.

Here is Kelly Cordes's take on a similar idea, with a good list of the pros and cons to this approach:

kellycordes.wordpress.com/2…

For what its worth, I dont think its a good idea though.

Cool! Great input all. I did find during my informal testing that you will sink away from the tools if you really weight the rope when a significant amount of rope is out. Especially thin ropes. I'm currently using 7.8s in half-rope mode. For sure, weighting the rope a significant amount simply isn't going to work. On the other hand I did find in my informal testing I could move around surprisingly well when the tool had a good stick. Short amount of a fat rope out in those instances. NOT that I would do so on a true lead, just an interesting point from limited testing.
So based on all this, the Kelly Cordes article, and other articles I've read on this and other forums I've landed at rope hooking, and variants of it are viable means of getting added peace of mind and even helpful in getting some rest when starting to feel the pump.
I'm cool w/using this and letting anyone and everyone know I did so on a lead. I tend to agree, 'Ice climbing is aid climbing'. And as has been said, 'Bad form in ice climbing is ….. falling'.

I read Kelly's blog and other comments - clipping into the tool with a draw and using the rope or using a fifi hook tethered to your harness or the rope flip are all ways to attach to one's tool. While this may provide a measure of psychological reassurance be really careful about weighting the tool thru the rope or tether. Once I set my tool I give it a slight tug testing the placement when pulling up or using the higher grip I can feel subtle shifts in the placement particularly in brittle ice or when hooking. When a tool is weighted thru a tether or rope these shifts won't be felt and the tool placement could be compromised or pulled out.

Case in point, now this was years ago just prior to leash less tools coming on the market, taking tension on a tool was fairly common practice. I watched a new leader weight both tools she thought were bomber only to have both pull resulting in a ground fall. What appeared to happen is she loaded the tools downward but then pressed her feet against the ice pushing her hips away from the wall causing the lower part of the handle to pivot away from the ice and shear out. Fortunately she was ok just shaken up, very lucky.

Fekkin' stoopid idea. If you slip the tool is likely to pop out and hit you in the face THEN. yer gonna fall.

If you can't hold on to them tools to place gear you got no business leading.

This goes for Fifi hooks, leashes, tethers, butt plugs and all other manner of cheating.

As good as the gear is these days I can't believe people still engage in all this nonsense and then are surprised when they get hurt followed by the inevitable Crowd-fund appeal to raise money for Joe Blim-Blam who fell off Dracula and needs a 2$ million surgery to re-attach his sphincter.

Crikey just stay home...

RobC2- Your comments will carry more weight sans the snide remarks. You don't like the idea and will never use it - we get it. I'm not the bold and excellent ice climber you are for sure. And never will be. At 60, with the metal knee (yrs of rugby, running climbing, skiing) I'm looking for any safety edge. Yeah, I won't be claiming the 'clean' lead so I'll never have the bragging rights you do. I'm cool with that.
I have read numerous posts from well known to (no doubt) very good ice climbers and the bottom line I get from those reads is such techniques are reasonable when applied judiciously. Bomber tool placement, test it, little to no weighting, etc. Bad judgement in many aspects of ice climbing can get you hurt. I'd rather know and use this judiciously.
All - If you've never tested any of these 'chicken clip' techniques I suggest getting on TR and trying some out. Or just stand at an iced face. Be honest and use bomber sticks so you don't 'get the result you want'. With bomber sticks the tool is actually not likely to pop out if you're simply gently weighting it in a very downward fashion. Not that I expect anyone to change their mind. But you can then at least say you've done it and speak from personal experience. My limited testing surprised me BUT has not instilled that false confidence. Judicious is the watchword.

Dan Beausoleil wrote:RobC2- Your comments will carry more weight sans the snide remarks. You don't like the idea and will never use it - we get it. I'm not the bold and excellent ice climber you are for sure. And never will be. At 60, with the metal knee (yrs of rugby, running climbing, skiing) I'm looking for any safety edge. Yeah, I won't be claiming the 'clean' lead so I'll never have the bragging rights you do. I'm cool with that. I have read numerous posts from well known to (no doubt) very good ice climbers and the bottom line I get from those reads is such techniques are reasonable when applied judiciously. Bomber tool placement, test it, little to no weighting, etc. Bad judgement in many aspects of ice climbing can get you hurt. I'd rather know and use this judiciously. All - If you've never tested any of these 'chicken clip' techniques I suggest getting on TR and trying some out. Or just stand at an iced face. Be honest and use bomber sticks so you don't 'get the result you want'. With bomber sticks the tool is actually not likely to pop out if you're simply gently weighting it in a very downward fashion. Not that I expect anyone to change their mind. But you can then at least say you've done it and speak from personal experience. My limited testing surprised me BUT has not instilled that false confidence. Judicious is the watchword.

I think what you fail to emphasize is that this is considered an absolute last resort to most ice climbers. It might be a good technique to know and practice under controlled conditions, but if it comes to this, you are leading climbs that are too hard for you and you have already f'ed up. Sure it's good to know and better than falling, but I don't consider it a viable technique for regular use. I kind of put it in the category of using an avalanche beacon. A good technique to practice, but if it come to using it, you have already ignored all the obvious warning sign that are telling you that you shouldn't be in that situation in the first place.

Dan Beausoleil wrote:RobC2- Your comments will carry more weight sans the snide remarks. You don't like the idea and will never use it - we get it. I'm not the bold and excellent ice climber you are for sure. And never will be. At 60, with the metal knee (yrs of rugby, running climbing, skiing) I'm looking for any safety edge. Yeah, I won't be claiming the 'clean' lead so I'll never have the bragging rights you do. I'm cool with that. I have read numerous posts from well known to (no doubt) very good ice climbers and the bottom line I get from those reads is such techniques are reasonable when applied judiciously. Bomber tool placement, test it, little to no weighting, etc. Bad judgement in many aspects of ice climbing can get you hurt. I'd rather know and use this judiciously. All - If you've never tested any of these 'chicken clip' techniques I suggest getting on TR and trying some out. Or just stand at an iced face. Be honest and use bomber sticks so you don't 'get the result you want'. With bomber sticks the tool is actually not likely to pop out if you're simply gently weighting it in a very downward fashion. Not that I expect anyone to change their mind. But you can then at least say you've done it and speak from personal experience. My limited testing surprised me BUT has not instilled that false confidence. Judicious is the watchword.

I see the butt plug comment struck a nerve...

Anyway 60 y/o guy what about these geezers haulin' arse at 70! Ya think they hangin' off their tools?!

rockandice.com/lates-news/7…

BITD many a climber had a fifi hook or cliffhanger on their harness and would hook into their tools to place a screw. Others had tethers. I have used them all at one time or another. With modern screws I had found no need to do so. But still a trick worth knowing about.

Directly from Petzl...

Read to the bottom. Food for thought...

petzl.com/us/outdoor/news/p…-

Thanks Just Solo: Directly from Petzl... Read to the bottom. Food for thought...

I probably should've mentioned that the rope hooking technique is clearly not viable for tools w/adjustable pinky rests/grip rests. And most of the newer tools I'm seeing have that feature. I would hope anyone reading this forum would have the sense to more thoroughly research this (or any technique) and, do their own actual testing before even considering having it as a backup plan. Common sense dictates to me tools w/an adjustable grip rest are out of bounds for this.

What you're proposing could turn into a big mistake. Climb it in good form or you are playing with a loaded gun..

Just use a sling to your harness clipped to the handle. Hooking the rope on the tool requires the belayer to take on the rope, which is a communication clusterfuck and also introduces a pully effect additional load to the tool. even if you don't take on the tool you're introducing more slack into the system and any fall is seems likely to wiggle the tool out or slip off the pinky hook...

There is an accident report where a guy was doing this technique. The team got used to doing this "take" game, and one time the belayer misinterpreted some command as "take", and pulled the leader off the ice.

Your systems need to be a lot more robust to murphys law than this mess.

Clipping the tool directly to the harness introduces a new safety measure (of whatever quality) and creates some redundancy. While hooking the rope over the tool introduces a new (sketchy?) variable to the existing system possibly weakening the system.

I used to climb with a guy who had a variation on this. One leashless tool with a fixed webbing tether at exactly his arm reach. Essentially, he was on it every time he got a good stick on that side. On the other he had a leashed tool.

He used this as an extra safety and also used it for rope management while soloing. It worked for him.

The only fall he ever took was when a pick broke. It was a doozy though.

Dan Beausoleil wrote:Looking for comments on the safety/reliability of 'rope hooking' while leading. Recently started using it. The technique of pulling up a lead rope and hooking it over the pinky rest of a tool placed up high in order to get some rest and/or as a quick piece of 'pro'. Assuming one has an excellent stick w/the tool being used. I've aggressively tested it several dozen times in different ice conditions - not one failure. I already know, "Yer gonna die!!" So, accepting that inevitability, is this a relatively reliable safe technique or, is it russian roulette that will surely, eventually have a bad ending?

These comments were going around on another string ("stats of leads falls", "lost of me lead head"????)?? something like that. If used properly, as Dan Beausoleil indicated, they work perfectly fine, as long as the ice is good. The Petzl diagram (like most) makes it look like this guy is hanging his Winnegago off of the rope. It's meant as a passive backup, that's all.

Rope flicks are fantastic (in my experience. Place a bomber tool but don't pull the tool out too far before you flick the rope. You can even use a screw to quickly make a 9.mm cut under the pommel.

Some of you are apparently good at clipping a 'biner in the hold (not all tools will easily take one, interestingly), HOWEVER, you have to place the tool to be hooked in a position where you will not lever the tool out of the ice, either on 'biner replacement, but ESPECIALLY when removing it. It you are using tethers, you can't use this technique ...no room. If using leashes, why bother with a rope flick?

From "Winter Climbing" by Neil Gresham and Ian Parnell". Rockfax publishing (one of the best books you can buy on ice climbing).