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Rock climbing ethics from an origional Stone Master-Martin Veillon
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By Martin Veillon
From El Cajon, Calif.
May 6, 2012
I'm posting this far and wide so that whomever keeps adding bolts to my 1st ascents may understand that this is not acceptable as I do not add nor remove bolts to anyones 1st ascents.
This has been going on for several years here in San Diego County and it needs to stop.
Especially the bolts added next to cracks and/or areas that accept "clean" pro with ease and have very solid placements.
I've posted a rather lengthy letter to say the least on the Southern Calif. forum if any and/or all parties concerned wish to read.
I'd rather be climbing than wasting time removing.
Also of note is that the 3 areas I've mentioned can all be eaisly top-roped if you don't find the routes to be to the gym standards you like.
Treat the rock with respect as well as each other is the golden rule.
On "The Vampire"
On "The Vampire"

FLAG
By Tradoholic
May 6, 2012
Lets concentrate these multi threads into one community thread please admins.

On the bright side Martin, be honored that these sportos need a crutch to do your routes. Makes you look good!

FLAG
By Old and Busted
From Centennial, CO
May 6, 2012
Stabby
I'm a bolter who frankly doesn't even like trad climbing.

That said, what the assholes are doing out there is reprehensible and needs to be stopped.

FLAG
By Martin Veillon
From El Cajon, Calif.
May 7, 2012
Thanks to all and I'm glad to see my fellow trads are not all dead and gone although I expect many of us are not climbing much anymore.
If I can figure out how to stop ageing, although my mind seems to still be at the 20+ year level, I'll pass this info along.
I've been given directions on how to post my topos of the 3 areas noted and will get around to doing so this week on at least 2 websites, supertopos and I think this one as well.
Then people can see what's been done but there have been new climbs added to what my topos will show for someone to update who has this info.
And although the 3 crags listed will appear to be somewhat climbed out, they are not, there are still 1st ascents waiting as well as numerous boulder problems for someone to "see" them and "do" them-
I just hope they do so with style and then they too can work on becoming Stone Masters.
All climbers must take the time to read the numerous books of the history of climbing so that they can learn why this life style has it's reasons.
If not, then it's better that they stay in the gym and when they feel the need for sunshine, come out and climb fairly as the ROCK deserves the utmost respect.
Peace and Love to all, isn't life grand?-it is!!!

FLAG
By djkyote
May 7, 2012
you heard it kids: either be a Stone Master (still not entirely sure what that entails) or stay in the gym! no middle ground.

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By Jamie Henrichsen
From Lake Morena, CA
May 9, 2012
Mexican Border Fence
You should come to an ACSD meeting or something. Win some hearts and minds. I doubt it is Coloradans bolting your FA's. Most likely San Diegans.

Please don't make a mess on those walls. If you must chop, do it neatly. A war like you are posting up on the san diego meetup forum would be bad.

FLAG
By Mike Anderson
From Dayton, OH
May 9, 2012
I'm sure you are a great guy, but you aee coming across as a self-important, pompous @$$. If climbing in the style you advocate creates your attitude, I don't think you are going to win many converts.

FLAG
By Souljah
From Northern NM
May 10, 2012
Can Tajo Slab. <br />Glenn Short down below.
Apparently the title of Stonemaster (once associated with an exclusive assemblage of Calif free climbers) has evolved across time, or maybe devolved depending on one's perspective.

I don't recall hearing anyone introduce themselves as a Stonemaster, and I don't recall anyone saying; Look! There's so and so, he's an original Stonemaster. If you were embedded in the culture you knew who they were, and you understood the essence of what they represented to the sport. If there was any doubt, their wallets were a dead give away > s.ecrater.com/stores/82567/48d...

On a sober note Martin, that photo of your route is unhinging. Protecting the leader with a line of bolts on a 5.6 crack that takes gear is unjustifiable, and even more egregious when you consider the crux is .11+.

Good luck with your quest, and thanks for providing the community with another opportunity to address this critical aspect of our sport. I'm sorry that it had to come at your expense this time. Next time it will be somebody else, somewhere else...unfortunately.

FLAG
 
By Josh Kornish
From Missoula, MT
May 10, 2012
The Roach
I doubt that neither Kauk, Long, Bacher, Harding, Sherman or any other "stone master" would ever address themselves as such. Would you call Sonnie Trotter a Stone Master?

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By Martin Veillon
From El Cajon, Calif.
May 11, 2012
I knew that the term Stone Master would spark curosity as intended and I even expected thru my deductive mind that there would be replys like the ones I've been getting.

Good, now let's get back to the meat of the topic and forget the word Stone Master and talk about what climbing is about.

It's about a hobbie to many and a way of life to many others.

For those that it is a way of life you have replied favorably to my post.

For those that it is a hobbie, we are here to teach you from the lessons learned from those who came before us as you are like our adopted children and we wish to show you the way to play on the rock and learn from the freedom and self-finding that comes with it all.

We also want to learn from you as well as this is a great sport, way of life, hobbie and if we all respect the Rock then we should all be able to respect each other as we are all children of the Great Spirit Creator.

I only choose to see the good in the people I meet and as my Dad once told me "If you can't find something good to say about someone, then it's better to not say anything at all!"

I love everone, I am from the old school hippie days of peace and love.

Make love, not war people as war is wrong, love is all we need.

Life on this planet is far too short to be wasting time not living with this love attitude.

This is truely who I am, who I always have been and will never stop being "me".

I received an invitation from Randy Leavitt recently to attend one of the meetings noted on the last Tues. of this month but am waiting for him to call me with the location and time so that I can schedule this.

My work land line # is 619-825-8166 and cell # 619-318-9462.

I'm also hoping to get to know people who may be interested in helping me reblaze the trail system at Descanso Crag and I can show you the oppertunities that still remain as this area is vast like Mt. Woodson but without the trail system is dangerous due to East County rattlesnakes.

I spoke with a Forest Service Ranger about the trail cutting thing and although you need permission to put up new trails on Forest Service Land, you are allowed to "maintain" existing trails.

There is also a plaque as you arrive to the "Main Wall" area dedicated to a fallen Fire Fighter and I've met them on a couple of occassions there when they were also practicing their bush wacking skills and rescue rock skills.

These are our Fire Masters and serve us all very well with their lives on the line as does our Law Enforcement people.

My thanks to all and live in the way of Peace and Love - it's the right way to live.

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
May 11, 2012
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
Stop lecturing people on what climbing is. It's different for everyone. You could have said three sentences to get your point across without blowing rainbows of self-accolade up your own ass. The climbing in SD must not be all that great. From the looks of it, you have plenty of time to write a novel of self promotion every time someone responds to your blathering.

Next time, try this:

"Hey I put up some routes some years ago, and people have started adding bolts to them. Here are the names of the routes ___________. Here are the names of my other routes __________. Please don't add any more bolts to them. I am the FA and I'd like them to stay in the state in which I ascended them first. The ones that have had bolts added, will have the bolts removed when I get around to it. I'm open for discussion about any of these matters."

Instead of this:

Four score and seven eons ago, ... Stonemaster ... important that you understand my huge ass paragraph explaining the blatently obvious... Mountain that Walks... old guys rule... agree with me or have my crusty turds released upon thy head... don't add bolts.

Basically that's what you did. And it's dumb.

FLAG
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
May 11, 2012
tanuki
muttonface wrote:
Stop lecturing people on what climbing is. It's different for everyone. You could have said three sentences to get your point across without blowing rainbows of self-accolade up your own ass. The climbing in SD must not be all that great. From the looks of it, you have plenty of time to write a novel of self promotion every time someone responds to your blathering. Next time, try this: "Hey I put up some routes some years ago, and people have started adding bolts to them. Here are the names of the routes ___________. Here are the names of my other routes __________. Please don't add any more bolts to them. I am the FA and I'd like them to stay in the state in which I ascended them first. The ones that have had bolts added, will have the bolts removed when I get around to it. I'm open for discussion about any of these matters." Instead of this: Four score and seven eons ago, ... Stonemaster ... important that you understand my huge ass paragraph explaining the blatently obvious... Mountain that Walks... old guys rule... agree with me or have my crusty turds released upon thy head... don't add bolts. Basically that's what you did. And it's dumb.


BAM! Sheep-mug nails it!

Every post MV makes further obscures his one valid point; retro-bolting existing routes is bad. The more I read, the more I think that MV cares more about getting attention than he does about "ethics."

FLAG
By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
May 11, 2012
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord
climbers have the best sense of humor.

FLAG
By Jamie Henrichsen
From Lake Morena, CA
May 11, 2012
Mexican Border Fence
Martin Veillon wrote:
I received an invitation from Randy Leavitt recently to attend one of the meetings noted on the last Tues. of this month but am waiting for him to call me with the location and time so that I can schedule this.



The ACSD Meeting is on the last tuesday of most months at Callahans, 8111 Mira Mesa Blvd, San Diego, CA. This months is on tuesday the 29th at 7 PM.

Here is a link with more info.

meetup.com/Rock-Climbers-Of-Sa...

FLAG
By roundhead
May 12, 2012
so let me get this straight. the first ascentionist of more routes than most people climb in their lives, is asking people to stop adding bolts to the lines he put up, and a bunch of...lets see...twats, are complaining about his word choice, or that they dont like being lectured, or that not everyone can do his route safely so they should be allowed to add bolts to it. the guy isnt trying to win converts, or enhance his standing in the "climbing community", or getting attention. he just asked that folks stop retro bolting his routes. a reasonable request. i think everything else y'all are saying is snark. let the bitter responces commence. lets start with my bad spelling.

FLAG
By roundhead
May 13, 2012
really? is that the best you got? a simple straw man fallacy? how boring

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By J. Albers
From Colorado
May 13, 2012
Bucky
muttonface wrote:
Instead of this: Four score and seven eons ago, ... Stonemaster ... important that you understand my huge ass paragraph explaining the blatently obvious... Mountain that Walks... old guys rule... agree with me or have my crusty turds released upon thy head... don't add bolts. Basically that's what you did. And it's dumb.


Well done sir. Thanks for the laugh.

FLAG


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