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Rock climbing ethics from an origional Stone Master-Martin Veillon
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By Joe Huggins
From 666 Rue le Jour-Edge City
May 4, 2012
mmmm....tree

Dylan Weldin wrote:
Edited for paragraphs (I couldn't do it without 'em): !

Thanks man, nice job. That op was unreadable for this cranky old man.


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By Greg D
From Here
May 4, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

Will S wrote:
Between the grammar/formatting, the self proclaimed status as an "original Stonemaster" when basically nobody has every heard of you, the cross posting into multiple forum categories and multiple websites, the silly example above where both are splitter cracks that can be sewn up from bottom to top with modern gear, and the sign off of borderline proseltyzing, I just can't take you seriously. Csproul was right on the money, as well as jarthur. Well, that doesn't reflect well on the CA DSAI then, when you can't manage basic formatting in this, or any of the other multitudinous forums where you've posted this same stuff. Sorry, but if you want to be read and taken as anything other than a ranting crank, basic formatting and clarity goes a long way. And If you're that exercised about it, go chop the bolts. Simple solution to a simple problem.


To put ennie emphosis on grammer or paregraphs is plain silly. The op's points were well made and quite clear. Not everywone is a "great" righter.

And Will, I'll see if anybody's heard of you.


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By jonathan knight
May 4, 2012
Kessler Cairn

I read the original post, no problem, because I care a lot more about climbing than critiquing someone's writing. It sounds like fair warning to me. No need for bolts when you have good gear.


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By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
May 4, 2012
Gunking

Joe Huggins wrote:
Thanks man, nice job. That op was unreadable for this cranky old man.


I am not sure the OP is better off with the paragraphs. Most of it is just lame spray.


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By fat cow
From Salinas, CA
May 4, 2012
perfect seam

by the looks of that picture there's a bolt about every 4-5 feet on a protectable crack, that does seem kinda shitty.


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By berl
From Oregon
May 4, 2012

that photo is worth a jillion words. I agree with Dylan that the debate/discussion between two people is much better settled in person than in a forum, but the bigger issue of bolting cracks for convenience goes well beyond just the FA and retrobolter.

also, "i couldn't be bothered to read something without paragraph breaks, so it must be lame" is weak sauce.


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By ROC
From Englewood, CO
May 4, 2012

I do not believe that you own the rock just because you've climbed it.


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By Joe Huggins
From 666 Rue le Jour-Edge City
May 4, 2012
mmmm....tree

berl wrote:
, "i couldn't be bothered to read something without paragraph breaks, so it must be lame" is weak sauce.

Nobody is saying that the argument is lame because we didn't want to read anything so poorly written. Making up a statement, and attributing it to others is lame.


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By ben jammin
From Moab, UT
May 4, 2012
MLB

Dylan Weldin wrote:
Edited for paragraphs (I couldn't do it without 'em):


Dude! You just retro'd his rant... I believe the common ethic is for you to get your balls chopped.


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By Ben May
From Escondido, CA
May 4, 2012
Yack Crack, Gallery Wall

James Crump wrote:
It is truly hardship see the vast hoard who seek only ease and spoon fed adventure. With my routes, trad,ground-up,etc, I have sought some balance, given a few lines to the evil of retro, but for those of weak fiber and sheltered necessity, feeling they can't enjoy climbing unless it is a sheltered as their mama's tit, it is never enough. They forget that you gave them line x, or line y, now they want z too. I say enough and these whimpy little retro bolting panty waste can go to the gym. Leave the bold trad routes alone, go find your own toys and bolt them the way You want, but leave the bold routes you wine about alone! Your arguments to retro are as feeble and weak as your hearts and courage. I vomit on sport climbers who claim to climb 5.12+, but whine and blithering on a mer 5.8 move without their security blanky of a bolt above their heads Take away what builds strength and mental character and we will be beset by generations of feeble minds... And republicans...

You just had to go political on this, didn't you. You one of those occupy nuts?


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By Andy Kowles
From Longtuckles
May 4, 2012

L G wrote:
Two different people, two different times. An FA is only a notation of the first recorded ascent; It's not a lifetime award of rights to the control of a line on a rock. I prefer the modernization, but others may enjoy schlepping 20 pounds of clanky metal stuff to the crag because they like tinkering with gear or reenacting history. Time to just get climbing, whichever way you prefer it.


Wow! Even with the picture, you're going to state this? Don't you see the hypocrisy in your statement? Martin DID "just get climbing how he preferred it" and then someone totally screwed that. I guess you're one of those "just don't clip it" people? Bummer.

This whole thread nicely illustrates just how shitty this particular internet forum has become, just how shitty the ethics of climbing have become, and just how necessary the bans on fixed protection outside of Boulder are!

Even the substantive attacks on the OP, few that there are, are unjustified.

Safety and convenience trumps all! Isn't that the motto of the TSA, as well?


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By James Crump
May 4, 2012

Ben May wrote:
You just had to go political on this, didn't you. You one of those occupy nuts?


No, sorry. It was a lame attempt at humor. Please forgive me.


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By smithb
From Flagstaff, Az
May 4, 2012

pm sent with TOPO upload instructions


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By Tombo
From Boulder
May 4, 2012
1/3 of the way up Spire, just above where my piece blew.

@ LG, Well I'm old and fat, think I'll go out and chip some holds.

@ the rest of the retro bolters. If you need a bolt every four feet stay in the gym.


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By Hank Caylor
Administrator
From Golden, CO
May 5, 2012
Lone goat..

My Wife is doing a photoshoot with Dean tomorrow. I'm picking him up at Lynns house, I'll ask them if they know Martin Veillon and is he "an original Stone Master"... I agree with every thing Martin said as well as Crump, and I don't really care that Martin doesn't use paragraphs, it's the title of the OP that interests me most for some reason.


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By CJC
May 5, 2012

sad this place is just another internet cesspool now...attacking the man instead of discussing the issues.

I'm with you Martin good luck and thanks for holding the line.

knew the sport would explode in popularity but never would have expected the lazy self-centered arrogance that this new generation of climbers would bring.

bolting cracks and/or eliminating runouts on established climbs? or defending such?

cowards.


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By JohnWesely
From Red River Gorge
May 5, 2012
Gunking

CJC wrote:
sad this place is just another internet cesspool now...attacking the man instead of discussing the issues. I'm with you Martin good luck and thanks for holding the line. knew the sport would explode in popularity but never would have expected the lazy self-centered arrogance that this new generation of climbers would bring. bolting cracks and/or eliminating runouts on established climbs? or defending such? cowards.


I think the reaction is because the issue has been beaten worse than any dead horse. The OP's post adds nothing whatsoever to the discussion except to puff up his own ego.


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By Martin Veillon
From El Cajon, Calif.
May 5, 2012

"As Free As the Wind" by Martin Veillon

Like gypsies in the night, we dance with our shadows
cast from the campfire light.
Surefoot and free, we feel the heartbeat of our Mother Earth,
and wash our feet in the mornings dew on the grass.

We are at home throughout all of the mountains and valleys we roam,
all is so peacefull at twilight and dawn
that we can hear the whisper of the wind in our hair.

A golden eagle circles closely overhead as we speak with the coyotes,
a mountain lion and her two cubs watch from nearby,
as the forest sparrows eat from our outstretched and raised hands,
their tiny feet tickeling our dried palms,
whose backsides are beginning to show the wrinkles of times gone by.

I recall, as I watch my son bounding down the trail,
that I too once had more bounce in these tired knees of mine.
I remember bounding, like the mountain goat billie I use to be,
surefooted and strong on ankles that couldn't be broken
through all of the falls.

A time just before the grey hairs and wrinkles moved in,
a time when I could do anything I wanted,
and then did!

I can hardly wait to tell my grand-children
the stories of how brave I was, and still am,
and of how the only way to stay young like me
is to never stop liveing as free as the wind
that the eagle rides.

And now for my rebuttal comments:
csproul-I know about para. but was at work blasting this out while multi-tasking as always. My upcoming books will be correct as I will also employ an editor.

jarthur-in reference to your note 2-I mentiond the 5.14 climber adding bolts not because he was pissing himself, but because the need for bolts along the crack/seam being unnecessary.

wills-I've already removed bolts added once but should not have to continue doing so as I don't do this to other people's climbs out of respect.

muttonface-you don't yet possess the intellegence to understand what I've written-perhaps you one day will when you move out of your parents house and get out on your own like a man.

jeff ludwig-until you've climbed my test pieces, then you cannot know of how they compare-but I was not comparing my climbs to the "Bachar-Yerin" but was rather noting that such works of climbing art are not to be raped by the useless, worthless people who are just taking up space.

john knight-I've done all that you've noted but I didn't have time for the PS part of your comment.
I do much better when I'm not just blasting out something out from work during my busy day, other than that-thanks for your support.

david sahalie-the only application required is climbing certain routes of note-no bolt chopping needed, but when someone does this to your 1st ascents, what will you do? - or do you have any?

dylan weldin-thanks for taking the time to modify my statement to try to appease those who can't do nothing better than complain-those who no doubt still live with their parents and know everything.

dexter rutecki-just have your 14 year old sister read it to you at your bedtime.

roc-no, I do not own the rock-it says so in my statement or did you miss that? I am rather the artist of the 1st ascent and you appear to be just a spectator rather than an artist-is this true? - otherwise you should know the Stone Master guidelines.

lg-it is a lifetime acheivement that goes on and on whether you like it or not as once you're gone, you'll soon be forgotten no doubt.

To all others, thanks and to everyone let's remember "To LOVE your neighbor as you LOVE yourself."
This will bring about world peace - the concept we must all embrace, but as you can tell from my rebuttal to the negative ones-I too can dish it out as I certainly can take it!!!


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By mitchy
From nunya gotdamn business.
May 5, 2012

i used to love my neighbor all the time, 2-3 times a week. Now, i can't stand her.


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By Olaf Mitchell
From Paia, Maui, Hi,
May 5, 2012
rockerwaves

"I agree with every thing Martin said as well as Crump, and I don't really care that Martin doesn't use paragraphs, it's the title of the OP that interests me most for some reason." Hank Caylor


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By John Husky
May 5, 2012

To Martin Veillon:

I don't care who you are. I think you are right. You must realize that the title of your post was a bit provacative, and certain to drag out the shit munchers.

To everyone else:

Why don't you go on a fucking climb, or put up a first ascent if your so bad.

Cheers!


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By PRRose
From Boulder
May 5, 2012

Many of the original Stonemasters post regularly on Supertopo. Maybe you should post there, too.


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By Greg D
From Here
May 5, 2012
Out of the blue.  Photo by Mike W. <br />

Andy Kowles wrote:
This whole thread nicely illustrates just how shitty this particular internet forum has become, just how shitty the ethics of climbing have become, and just how necessary the bans on fixed protection outside of Boulder are!



Nice!


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By Josh Kornish
May 5, 2012
The Roach

So please enlighten me on how talking about how doing one finger pullups has anything to do with ethics?

He could talk ethics without this.


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By RNclimber
From Riverside, Ca
May 5, 2012
Seconds before onsighting Gun Smoke V3, Joshua Tree bouldering

Josh Kornish wrote:
So please enlighten me on how talking about how doing one finger pullups has anything to do with ethics? He could talk ethics without this.


If you want people to post appropriate material, why not do it yourself? I don't think calling anything "sucking a mummy dick" helps out in your position...


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