startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/the_map#.UGGtX7e>>>

An interesting read Brian. Thanks for posting.

The Kool-Aid drinkers aren't gonna like it.

Really good read. A lot of things Rob laid out really clicked.

Not as impressed with the "map" concept as I was with his clearing away of all the myriad dead leaves that represent cross-training and climber-specific training that usually put people exactly where they started afterward.

Quality thinking.

Good article. Thanks for sharing. Would be interesting to discuss thoughts on the idea of periodization vs. what Rob is discussing (100% effort all the time) with changes in volume.

If you like Rob's article, you might also enjoy the book he parroted just about every one of his points from - Starting Strength by Rippetoe and Kilgore - the owners of the website hosting the article. The book is maybe 30% barbell stuff, the rest a pretty good read on strength training and periodization.

I'm failing to connect those barbell exercises to climbing, though, but I'm still open to it. It would be more interesting if Rob made a better attempt to connect them rather than sounding like he's just jumped on a new bandwagon.

My take from reading the article and also his site is that barbell training is the primary "cross training" used to ensure and maximize a hormonal response from the training load. As climbing primarily works such specific and small muscles, additional stimuli is necessary for the advanced climber to continue to adapt physically.

Interesting stuff.

I'm with Kevin. The takeaway for me was that to elicit a big hormonal response, you need to put big stress on the body, and the way to do that is with heavy multi-joint compound movements (that by their nature train a large volume of your muscle mass).

Now if someone would show me the studies to back it up, showing that it does actually elicit a superior hormonal response, we'd be getting somewhere.

The reason I'm somewhat skeptical is the reading I've done of studies on single set vs. multiple set training. Then again, multiple set isolation exercises is applying stress via concentrated volume, rather than stress by dispersed volume.

What are these "hormones" you're talking about and how do they work?

My unscientific heady BS model formed from my own experience is that when I burn through the workout/recovery energy tank working the wrong muscles, there's less leftover for the ones that are useful.

I do like this "energy creation" model based on "hormones", though, where you bust hard with a barbell and suddenly something happens that ... makes your climbing muscles stronger too? I'd like to hear more about how this works.

Very good read. Given the scope of topic he's covering I feel like he did a great job of putting the trees in order to try and see the forest.
And I didn't take his comments on barbell work to mean that it's the only way to create a training stimulus in more physiologically well adapted athletes (not saying stronger or "better" climbers here). Just that given what he's learned it's the most effective way to keep the physiological stress on the athlete high enough so that the athlete continues to see improvement.

I think it's an outstanding article. I've addressed some of your questions and tried to layman-ize it a bit in a follow-up post here:

Review of The Map of Athletic Performance

Of course there is a lot of specificity left out. You can't address everything in one article. Rob is trying to set a foundation of thought behind you training, which is sorely lacking in most of us.

what, climbing wise, would fall into the category of "junk miles"?

It seems like climbing at max difficulty all of the time isn't going to do much to help me build much needed endurance for places like the Red River Gorge. Maybe doing 4x4s until I'm so flamed I can't hang on still qualifies as maximum effort?

I'd also like to know some alternatives to these bar workouts for those of us who don't have a weights setup or a gym membership with one.

Steve, your review doesn't suck. Good job. =)

The burgeoning blogosphere of voodoo bullshit training advice that appears nobody has ever actually followed to the letter and never will, much less actually saw real climbing improvement with - at the reading of this last article about an article about some other articles about nothing related to climbing - just got really old for me.

Forgive my high school level of understanding on this subject, but to give an overview of my understanding: the cells responsible for hypertrophy are the satellite cells which move to the trauma site caused by the training and begin to repair/replace damaged muscle fibers and hormones regulate the satellite cells. So I assume that by doing full body strength workouts you are damaging more muscle fibers in your body, thus the need for a higher level of growth hormones. But I am failing to see how one would expect that the forearms/fingers would receive a greater portion of the growth hormones. I would imagine that the hormones would be distributed across all injured fibers where the bigger fibers would receive a larger portion of the hormones than a smaller fiber. Anyway the main take away for me was if you want to increase endurance you should train strength, not endurance - to an extent, and that goes along the same lines as what Steve Bechtel wrote about in THIS article in 2009, so I'll be sticking to the hangboard and will not begin pumping iron. Muscle growth information was obtained via www.ideafit.com/fitness-library/how-do-muscles-grow if you care to look.

My question, although not entirely relevant to my own situation, because I have much more "basic" work to do, is; If you're doing power lifting exercises, that is cleans and deadlifts and the like, how do you effectively work hard enough to trigger a hormone release, but not bulk up from the repeated work? In other words, how hard would one have to work to trigger the desired response, and how would that correlate to anabolic (and largely) unwanted growth of large muscle groups?

This, regardless of where the hormones go, assuming that the theory actually does hold water, seems like a much more rudimentary question that needs an answer. Some of the aforementioned missing specificity on the actual incorporation of said training might help illuminate some answers. Does anyone else follow this line, or am I way the hell off?

Jake, I bet you can get in touch with Rob direct if you look around a bit, and the smart money has it that that guy, who's freed El Cap, probably knows a bit about training for strength, not girth. Possibly more than those of us posting on an internet forum while the sun shines. Speaking of which, gotta go run errands so I can get out tomorrow-

i think most climbers in general (although there are obviously going to be exceptions to this) won't really gain that much muscle weight by doing these extracurricular workouts. that being said, for me, it comes down to time - in terms of recovery as well as dealing with my work schedule. i simply don't have time to be horsing around with squats and shit like that.

Jake,

I am no expert on any means and echo the above of getting in touch with Rob. I do however cross train to support a variety of my outdoor pursuits (backpacking, mountain biking, climbing, etc). I am not a super strong climber by any means, but I do know a small amount from my own research and experience doing mainly barbell workouts for the last few years.

In general I have found that food, not the exercises themselves, make one bulky. I am 160 and 5' 11" so I am not huge by any means. However my supporting workout consists of heavy (170 pound) squats, deadlifts, etc. I mainly do a low carb diet, focusing on meats and fresh veggies and tubers if I want carbs vs. processed flour.

My understanding is that engaging large muscle groups (legs mainly, as they are in general so much larger) elicits a hormonal response of growth hormones that strengthen your muscles over all.

I don't have any super good links looking at studies. Just some observations from my own life =) Google around though: there is definitely stuff out there about how large barbell exercises dont have to make one bulky.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I initially leaned toward the answers given, but I like to get opinions from those that are well versed or at the very least more knowledgeable than myself.