Mountain Project Logo

Retrobolting

Original Post
j Leend · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 31

So folks. Heres my question. A route at a local crag has a notorious sketchy second clip. In fact falling off at the second bolt will put you on the ground from 15'. This is without having introduced clipping slack. The first ascensionist is long gone.

Simply adding a bolt in between the first and second would solve the problem. There is an excellent clipping hold available.

Does this cross an ethical line?

How have you addressed this issue?

Thanks!

Micah Klesick · · Charlotte, NC · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 3,971

Stick clip the 2nd bolt. Most of the bolts at my local crags don't even start until 15'-20' off the ground...

Creed Archibald · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 1,016

^^^ Or project it on TR until you are confident that you won't blow the clip.

DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815

Whether you add it or not posting online about it is a good way to raise a shit storm. Many routes here the first bolt is 15 or so feet off the ground. Assuming a 6 foot tall person you want 3 bolts in the 9 feet above your head? if it's that big of a deal remove the first bolt and place one higher up, otherwise just leave it alone.

David Draper · · Chattanooga, TN · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 97

The solution is to raise the first bolt

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 883

Messing with bolts gets a lot of panties bunched. Just raise the ground.

Lurk Er · · Truckee, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 5,289

Probably best to add at least 3 bolts.

j Leend · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 31

I was leaning towards raising the first bolt. Seems to make the most sense. Solves a real problem and shouldnt ruffle too many feathers.

Thanks to those of you who were helpful.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
jlind wrote:I was leaning towards raising the first bolt. Seems to make the most sense. Solves a real problem and shouldnt ruffle too many feathers.
It's one thing to have some unprotected 5.9 at the start of 5.12 route. It's a totally different thing on a 5.10a/b route. If the rock isn't bullet or the landing is shitty, it doesn't matter how hard it is.

Sport climbing, by definition, is supposed to be reasonably safe. GROUND FALLS are never acceptable (ask anyone who's taken one from 15' up onto talus).

Having three bolts in the first 15' is NOT excessive. Put in the third bolt.
Greg Barnes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,060

Depends on the specifics of the area, the route, and the local community.

And John, you have to admit that there are quite a few areas where the first bolts are just way too low, encouraging dangerous clipping, belaying, and messy short falls when if the bolt were just a few feet higher it would make more sense.

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

Greg is 100% correct.

DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815

Use a stick clip if it's an issue. Recently at a local crag someone added a bolt that to an existing route that made it so you could make the first clip while standing only 2 feet off the deck. (not to mention it was off route, a spinner, the hanger was an anchor hanger with a rap ring on it, and a hardware store tapper/non compression bolt was used) those things aside, if you were clipping the next bolt and fell you would still deck. Sport climbing is supposed to be safe but it's rock climbing not a children's playground. Needless to say this bolt no longer exist.

DrRockso RRG · · Red River Gorge, KY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 815
Justin Brunson · · Tacoma WA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 2,266

I agree that relocating the existing bolts would usually be better than adding another.

Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

Add bolt or move first bolt up. Either way, don't post it online.

You will almost certainly get a shitload of nasty comments from people who have never even seen the route in question. This happens all the time, even when bolts are added/moved w the explicit permission of the FA.

Brad J · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 471
John Byrnes wrote: Having three bolts in the first 15' is NOT excessive. Put in the third bolt.
For the average 5'10" climber that's a bolt just about knee level while clipping the next bolt. I couldn't disagree more. Not only is that excessive but you have ONE guy posting up that HE wants to make the climb safer. You don't know about the local ethics or what the other locals want. The climb could be 10c but the section the OP is talking about could be 5.6. My opinion is, leave the climb alone, sport doesn't mean danger free. At the very least the OP should connect with the climbing COMMUNITY to decide if a bolt is needed.

John, you are an experienced climber and that comes across in these forums but what you've done here is give all newbies a license to add bolts anytime they get scared. That's not good for the local crags nor is it good for climbing in general.

I like much of what you post. I just really disagree this time...

Brad
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
John Byrnes wrote:Having three bolts in the first 15' is NOT excessive. Put in the third bolt.
100% incorrect - it is excessive. There are many routes in many areas where the first bolt is intentionally placed 12' - 15' or even 20' and are intended to be stick-clipped. The reason is precisely to prevent the nonsense of 3 bolts in the first 15'.
John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Marc801 wrote: 100% incorrect - it is excessive. There are many routes in many areas where the first bolt is intentionally placed 12' - 15' or even 20' and are intended to be stick-clipped. The reason is precisely to prevent the nonsense of 3 bolts in the first 15'.
Ha! Ruffled feathers everywhere I look! Just like the old days.

My answer is not "100% incorrect". Nothing in climbing is ever 100% applicable to every situation. "It Depends"(tm) always applies, to wit:

I've placed many first-bolts in the 15' range with the express intent that they be stick-clipped. So Marc, I totally agree with you in cases where that's appropriate.

On the other hand, there are definitely places where it's virtually impossible to carry a stick, the start is cruxy and the landing sucks. "Sucks" can be rough talus, cactus, or a steep 3rd-class slab/slope that, when you hit, causes you bounce and tumble down another 30' yanking your belayer with you, and perhaps over a lower cliff or into some other hazard.

If you want a cute 5'2" climber to be able to clip the first bolt from easy ground and not provide a ground fall anywhere along the way, you put in 3 bolts in the first 15'. You have to consider that people often clip high above their heads adding about 4' of fall potential if they blow the clip. There's also stretch, belayers getting pulled forward, too much slack out, etc. So yes, I've placed three bolts in the first 15' when that's been appropriate, and I'm proud of it.

Further, raising the first bolt sounds simple, but as many people here know, removing a bolt can be a huge PITA and can damage the rock leaving an ugly mess. If the OP wants to invest the time to remove #1 and has the right tools, that's fine, but the simplest thing is to just leave it. A low bolt often holds the belayer's rope out of the way***.

I'm doing my best here not to violate Guideline #1, but the average climber is not 5'10" and even if she were, what about the other HALF of the climbing population?

The OP doesn't say if the start is a garden-variety, walk-up-with-your-stick situation, or something more complicated, so let him decide. He's local, so I also leave the local ethics to him.

***With low cruxes and high stick-clipped bolts, lots of people fall and get the belayer's rope between their legs. They get a nasty burn and often flipped upside down, risking serious injury. In addition, they often collide with their belayer, causing injury to one or both, and risking loss of the belay. Whenever I place a high first bolt, I also usually place a belayer's bolt about 6' to the side and about 7' off the ground to hold the belayer's rope out of the way. This is not an anchor bolt, the belayer can still move and give a soft catch. (Girlfriends love this.) When the climber clips #2 or higher, the belayer can then unclip her rope and move to a normal belay position.
john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

the bolt is in the wrong place for YOU,,how many times has this route been done as is ?

Chop the first bolt and live a little

Alexey Dynkin · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Oct 2014 · Points: 0

1) "nubes" aren't going to go and put bolts in as they please...because they don't know how to. So, I wouldn't worry about that.

2) The bolt in question was the 2nd bolt, not the first. High first bolts are meant to be stick-clipped, I agree - but not the second bolt! If it was, then what's the point of the first bolt?

3) The unfortunate reality is that there is almost always ground fall potential near bolt #2. Especially when you take extra slack and rope stretch into account. The math simply works out that way - unless, of course, bolt #1 is wicked high and #2 is like 5 feet above it. Which, actually, is the ideal situation from a safety standpoint. Anyway, given this fact, the question becomes, how likely is one to blow the move to clip #2, relative to the rating of the route? If a move close to the rating is required to make the clip, then yes - either adding another bolt, or moving the existing one closer down so that it can be clipped from a reasonable stance - would seem like a reasonable thing to do.

Or just take out the first one to make it clear that the current #2 should be stick-clipped.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
DrRockso wrote: ^This is not a joke
I'd whip on that if I put it in(with an impact driver). Did you use an impact driver to get it out or was it easy to thread out of the hole?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Fixed Hardware: Bolts & Anchors
Post a Reply to "Retrobolting"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.