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Retro-naming vs. Given Names
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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Oct 29, 2009

I'll keep repeating it until I'm blue in the face. If you do an FA but don't do ANYTHING to get the information out, and 20 years later somebody else claims the FA after asking around about it and then renames your route, you have NO right to claim a lack of respect for your work. Not publicizing your route name and first ascent is not modesty, its jackassery.

Relatedly, so long as your original name is listed in the guidebook as just that, the community can call your route whatever the hell they want to. To say that the community MUST use your name is to be so egotistically ignore the reality of the situation as to be laughable.


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By tcamillieri
From Denver
Oct 29, 2009
The upper committing crux of Secret of the Beehives.

@ Ian - Right, of course, what was I thinking? We should really just not think about things and just do what is "obvious." Because its obvious what obvious means. Of course.


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By matthewWallace
From plymouth, nh
Oct 29, 2009
Cool movement on this line

i agree if there is a name for it that has evolved over time then go for it but at the same time make mention of the real name and give credit where deserved. as long as those two things are done i have no objection.


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By Dave C
From Homeless, CO
Oct 29, 2009

Brian Scoggins wrote:
If you do an FA but don't do ANYTHING to get the information out, and 20 years later somebody else claims the FA after asking around about it and then renames your route, you have NO right to claim a lack of respect for your work. Not publicizing your route name and first ascent is not modesty, its jackassery. Relatedly, so long as your original name is listed in the guidebook as just that, the community can call your route whatever the hell they want to. To say that the community MUST use your name is to be so egotistically ignore the reality of the situation as to be laughable.



This.

What is so hard to understand?


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By Brad Brandewie
Oct 30, 2009
Maya's first trip to RMNP.

Brian Scoggins wrote:
I'll keep repeating it until I'm blue in the face. If you do an FA but don't do ANYTHING to get the information out, and 20 years later somebody else claims the FA after asking around about it and then renames your route, you have NO right to claim a lack of respect for your work. Not publicizing your route name and first ascent is not modesty, its jackassery. Relatedly, so long as your original name is listed in the guidebook as just that, the community can call your route whatever the hell they want to. To say that the community MUST use your name is to be so egotistically ignore the reality of the situation as to be laughable.


Do you feel better now?

You may find that as you get older, you will be more interested in the history of the routes/problems that you climb.


Question... In your opinion, what was one supposed to do 20 years ago to get their route names out?

Cheers,
Brad


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By slim
Administrator
Oct 30, 2009
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

Brian, not jumping up on a podium and loudly claiming and naming an FA is jackassery? wow, that's an interesting theory. please don't tell me you have an MA in philosophy also...

here's a philosophy question... Naropa: cult or college.

discuss....


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By Buff Johnson
Oct 30, 2009
smiley face

Brad Brandewie wrote:
Question... In your opinion, what was one supposed to do 20 years ago to get their route names out? Cheers, Brad


Those were to be typewritten using carbon copy then papered on the street corner light post.

The form of dot matrix by way of the IIe was then considered aid, so it did not count. From what I understand, there was a 5 1/4 floppy that had all the routes listed but someone took a magnet to it.


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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Oct 30, 2009

slim wrote:
Brian, not jumping up on a podium and loudly claiming and naming an FA is jackassery? wow, that's an interesting theory. please don't tell me you have an MA in philosophy also... here's a philosophy question... Naropa: cult or college. discuss....


More like I'm sick to death of the old guard at Vedauwoo in particular getting up in arms every time a "new" problem goes up, when it actually went up decades ago. Admittedly, some of the new guard are right twats about getting called out on it, but every single correction statement has been patronizing, at best.

There is legitimate interest in the history, but I have no use for people who act like their dog was run over when the information is misrepresented. I mean, its not like telling the guys over at the Laramie or Cheyenne gear shops was ever that hard.

What I'm saying is that if it is so important that you get credit for a climb, it is YOUR responsibility that as many people as necessary know that you did it. Not putting in that effort but still insisting that people magically know what you did and what you called it is jackassery. Mind you, telling more people than is necessary to get that info out could be construed as jackassery, but its on the other end of the spectrum from the problem at hand.


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By slim
Administrator
Oct 30, 2009
tomato, tomotto, kill mike amato.

brian,

i hear what you're saying. just wanted to make sure you weren't resoling your shoes in an un-ventilated area this morning.


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By YDPL8S
From Santa Monica, Ca.
Oct 30, 2009
Bouldering at right side of Sun Deck

Isn't Machismo wonderful?


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By Ian F.
From Phx
Oct 30, 2009

tcamillieri wrote:
@ Ian - Right, of course, what was I thinking? We should really just not think about things and just do what is "obvious." Because its obvious what obvious means. Of course.



You must have some interesting internal dialogue. To me it seems simple, but to a younger crowd whose educational/developmental worlds revolved around the internet, and quick access to anything wanted from info to entertainment, it must be hard to realize that it wasn't that long ago that crews much like the ones you climb with were smaller in numbers and far more of a counter culture, did not have MP, ST, RC.com, cell phones, PC, etc. Seriously, seen a pay phone lately. And when it came to bouldering only those that visited and were part of the crew knew the names, or the FA party's, and even then it still wasn't as trendy as now. Time passes and those crews much like your own will move on to other places in search of the new adventure. The fact that this new generation doesn't want to respect the past, when info is confirmed and validated seems obsurd to me, just because they didn't have the info at hand. There are a lot of areas that are word of mounth to this day, and this problem will arise again in the future, but it is in our best interest to preserve what history we can, when it is brought to light.

Anyone who claims they can't find the problem is just case in point. Considering all you need to do is find the boulder itself. Bu bu bu bu but....I can't find the Kind in two seconds. What have we come to. I noticed you changed the name again. Congrats, way to heed everyones advise. Why bother with any of this if your mind was set.


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By matthewWallace
From plymouth, nh
Oct 31, 2009
Cool movement on this line

Brian Scoggins wrote:
More like I'm sick to death of the old guard at Vedauwoo in particular getting up in arms every time a "new" problem goes up, when it actually went up decades ago. Admittedly, some of the new guard are right twats about getting called out on it, but every single correction statement has been patronizing, at best. There is legitimate interest in the history, but I have no use for people who act like their dog was run over when the information is misrepresented. I mean, its not like telling the guys over at the Laramie or Cheyenne gear shops was ever that hard. What I'm saying is that if it is so important that you get credit for a climb, it is YOUR responsibility that as many people as necessary know that you did it. Not putting in that effort but still insisting that people magically know what you did and what you called it is jackassery. Mind you, telling more people than is necessary to get that info out could be construed as jackassery, but its on the other end of the spectrum from the problem at hand.


Brian I agree get the name out there as best as possible but I have seen routes that were developed and then retaken by moss in two years, so when the get scrubbed are you saying it should be FA'ed? that's crazy lets have some respect for the pioneers of our sport, and give credit where deserved, i can see making the mistake when you scrubbed something then finding out it was already done 5 years before, as soon as someone finds that out it is their moral and ethical responsibility to start using the original name. When and old problem doesn't get climbed for 5 years it doesn't become a new FA, its still the FA from 5 years ago, so lets have some respect for the people who made the sport we all love what it is today.

As for the old people being whinny in calling out the younger generation, it seems whinny for the new generation to want a FA so bad to ignore the history of the older generation. (when reading this remember I'm 21 I'm not one of the older generation)


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By Tom Hanson
Oct 31, 2009
Climber Drawing

I've had dozens of boulder problems of mine renamed by others who think they have done the F.A.
Big deal. I've never found it worth getting upset over.
A couple points of climbing etiquette should be taken into consideration prior to publishing a name, henceforth immoralizing it for posterior.
1. With real time online databases such as MountainProject it is much easier these days to seek out history from others and obtain a general consensus, so go online and inquire first. Perform due dilligence.
2. Once a problem/route is published under a name, keep that name, even if it is not the original. Why confuse the issue by renaming something or bestowing multiple names on one line?
A rose by any other name.....


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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Nov 2, 2009

matthewWallace wrote:
as soon as someone finds that out it is their moral and ethical responsibility to start using the original name


This is what I disagree with. Moral and ethical responsibility? It is a name. The rock is not changed by what we call it. Historically, yes, it is important to give credit where credit is due, but the name is entirely transient. Are the French intentionally disrespecting Chris Sharma when they talk about Biographie Extension? No. Its just what the community calls it. The community will call a route whatever it will. To misconstrue apathy for insult is to be so thin-skinned that I really don't know how to respond.

What I have a problem with is when somebody claims an FA, then the person who actually did the FA says (in essence) "You disrespectful piece of shit! I mean, we didn't really care about these rocks that much when I put this up, but if you'd bothered to ask around more than calling everybody but me, you'd know that we didn't give a damn who climbed these things, and maybe next time you won't steal our thunder! Not that we really care about our thunder!!" The objection is always prefaced with "we didn't really care back then" but it is quite apparent that they care NOW. In which case, once more, it is their responsibility to get the information out there.


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By Brad Brandewie
Nov 2, 2009
Maya's first trip to RMNP.

Brian,
You keep saying the same things. (as you said you would :)

I would wager that the community would overwhelmingly want to see the original name that the FAist gave their route/problem used on this database. It doesn't matter if the people coming forward to say that they did X route and named it Y are complete assholes or not. (and I don't know if they are in this case) All that matters is that the original name has become available and should be used.

If you have a problem with the attitude of a particular FAist then you can start a thread about that, but just because someone is not playing nice does not mean that we should ignore what they did. They had no responsibility to you or any of us to document what they did. None-the-less, if they come forward with the history of a particular route/problem, then we should honor that history.



Tom Hanson wrote:
Once a problem/route is published under a name, keep that name, even if it is not the original. Why confuse the issue by renaming something or bestowing multiple names on one line? A rose by any other name.....


I totally disagree with this.

If the name that the FAist gave a route/problem is available then it should be used on this database.


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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Nov 2, 2009

Brad Brandewie wrote:
If the name that the FAist gave a route/problem is available then it should be used on this database.


Good luck forcing that. Will you start by discrediting everyone who calls Luxury Liner by the wrong name? Sedimentary Journey? The East Face of Washington Column?

In a guidebook, it is worth noting what the original name of the route was (especially in areas where its ok to rename a problem upon its first free ascent). But the community will call it whatever the hell it wants to call it, and you literally can't do anything about it.


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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Nov 2, 2009

Also, just to be clear, I'm not advocating that people lose primacy of place if the information is not disseminated well. Just that they lose the right to get indignant when the historical information is incorrect. Correct it. Don't be a dick about it, just correct it. Note also that if the community already has a name for it, you can't fight that. Maybe a couple pedants will call it by its "true" name, but the name is already there.


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By David Brown
From Boulder, CO
Nov 2, 2009

You should always chisel the route name, date of FA, and the first ascentionist's full name at the base of the problem. Duh.


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By Buff Johnson
Nov 2, 2009
smiley face

does a machine gun count, or is that aid?


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By thomas ellis
From abq
Nov 2, 2009
Mint jullop

Brian Scoggins wrote:
Also, just to be clear, I'm not advocating that people lose primacy of place if the information is not disseminated well. Just that they lose the right to get indignant when the historical information is incorrect. Correct it. Don't be a dick about it, just correct it. Note also that if the community already has a name for it, you can't fight that. Maybe a couple pedants will call it by its "true" name, but the name is already there.


I am just wondering why you seem so pissed off?
Respect those who came before you and respect will follow you.


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By Brian Scoggins
From Eugene, OR
Nov 3, 2009

thomas ellis wrote:
I am just wondering why you seem so pissed off? Respect those who came before you and respect will follow you.


First, it has been my experience that those who expect respect for "their" routes really don't deserve my respect in any other way.

Second, names, to me, are just a convenient way of identifying a route, better than "third from the end" or some such similar. I don't think that there is anything intrinsic about one name vs. another and it REALLY bothers me that anybody would have a big enough ego about this stuff to get in a huff over whether or not "their" route is referred to by the name they gave it. In the guidebook, its worthwhile to list all of them. But in general parlance, when we talk to each other, you can't control that. So why try?


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By thomas ellis
From abq
Nov 4, 2009
Mint jullop

Brian Scoggins wrote:
First, it has been my experience that those who expect respect for "their" routes really don't deserve my respect in any other way. Second, names, to me, are just a convenient way of identifying a route, better than "third from the end" or some such similar. I don't think that there is anything intrinsic about one name vs. another and it REALLY bothers me that anybody would have a big enough ego about this stuff to get in a huff over whether or not "their" route is referred to by the name they gave it. In the guidebook, its worthwhile to list all of them. But in general parlance, when we talk to each other, you can't control that. So why try?


Your philosophy sounds like jumbled garbage. And you still sound pissed off. This is not a troll. I have done countless FAs and have had many problems renamed without my consent and it never bothered me. I wanted to point this out to stop you from hyper over generalizing.
I still say respect the one who came first.


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By Forestvonsinkafinger
From Iowa
Nov 4, 2009

People may invest a lot of time unlocking a sequence, and perhaps it is respectful to allow them a small honor for that. And while names may be tertiary to having fun, seeking adventure, and working out, they are useful in reference. This being said, reference may be contextual, as well as part of the culture and sub-culture.
I have heard routes retro-named after an event during a trip, where that route was in the spotlight, and in that sub-culture, the new name is fun to use. Is there harm in that?


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By Paul Dieterle
From Pasadena, CA
Nov 4, 2009
Chow down

WHO CARES!?!?!?!? If you're psyched to do/try/flail around on something, then nothing else, especially the name, should matter. The reason we climb is because it's something we enjoy. For me, the best part is that it's not supposed to be serious.


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By David Aguasca!
From New York
Nov 5, 2009
Oh no! OUT OF COFFEE! ALL IS LOST

I CLIMBED THIS LITTLE ROCK BEFORE YOU DID

NO YOU DIDN'T

YES I DID

NO YOU DIDN'T


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