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Replacing Biners On Permas-- Considering It
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Jun 3, 2011
I frequent the Obed in TN. Some of the carabiners on the permadraws (let's not get into hating permas) hanging on the roofs are well, crappy. :)

On Heresy, a popular 5.11c roof route, the biners are starting to get extremely grooved and one biner doesn't always close. Kind of sucks to have to close it with your finger.

I've considered being a nice guy and trying to replace those three biners that are in such rough shape, but I have some concerns.

A) Are steel bent gates available? I wouldn't think that hanging aluminum up there would be the best idea.

B) I don't want to possibly create any issues with the park service, as bolting and what not being a testy issue at the moment. I think it would be fine, but I'm asking for your opinion.
Grimulus
From Harriman, TN
Joined Oct 17, 2010
0 points
Jun 3, 2011
ICE PIT 2011
Use a quick link, 6"-12" of Chain, and then an Omega Pacfic Gym lite biner. Its a steel biner so it will last way longer than normal alum biner

omegapac.com/op_climbing_dandy...
sunder
From Alsip, Il
Joined Apr 19, 2009
844 points
Jun 3, 2011
Go for it. Good to give to the community. Thank you if you do. 1Eric Rhicard
Joined Feb 15, 2006
8,638 points
Administrator
Jun 3, 2011
El Chorro
Grimulus wrote:
I frequent the Obed in TN. Some of the carabiners on the permadraws (let's not get into hating permas) hanging on the roofs are well, crappy. :) On Heresy, a popular 5.11c roof route, the biners are starting to get extremely grooved and one biner doesn't always close. Kind of sucks to have to close it with your finger. I've considered being a nice guy and trying to replace those three biners that are in such rough shape, but I have some concerns. A) Are steel bent gates available? I wouldn't think that hanging aluminum up there would be the best idea. B) I don't want to possibly create any issues with the park service, as bolting and what not being a testy issue at the moment. I think it would be fine, but I'm asking for your opinion.


I think perma-draws look really shitty, but I do understand the reason for them being there so we'll just leave it at that.

Personally I don't see any reason whatsoever to use chain. If the route really needs perma-draws, it probably doesn't get any sun, which is the main issue with nylon runners. But then I think the home made slings look pretty shitty as well with the long tails hanging off the knots. Not to mention that water knots slip. Normal sport draw runners are best.

Steel biners last forever, but they don't clip well and I'm sure if you use steel you'll get some grief (bitching) from a few people.

What would be great is if you could collect a few bucks from everyone you see climbing there and replace them with some cheap aluminum bent gates. When they need replacing again, collect a few more bucks. IF you go aluminum, there is no reason to get expensive ones, as they'll get grooved out just as fast.

All that said... these are probably questions for the local climbers, route developers, and land managers. Someone hung those perma-draws in the first place and someone said that it was OK to do so. Speak with them 'cuz we're just all a bunch of internet morons who have absolutely no idea what we are talking about.
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Jun 3, 2011
mammut is making some really nice steel bent gate carabiners with good clipping action- and they're pretty cheap. worth a look. John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Joined Feb 1, 2004
2,394 points
Jun 3, 2011
sunder wrote:
Use a quick link, 6"-12" of Chain, and then an Omega Pacfic Gym lite biner. Its a steel biner so it will last way longer than normal alum biner omegapac.com/op_climbing_dandy...




I second this biner. Steel wire-gate biners can be tricky to find, but this one by OP clips very well. Really nicely rounded barstock too.
Pete Spri
Joined Jun 1, 2009
139 points
Jun 4, 2011
Thanks Guys. :) Grimulus
From Harriman, TN
Joined Oct 17, 2010
0 points
Jun 6, 2011
ICE PIT 2011
If you don't want to use chain then get a beafy draw like the Petzl Express Sling. And still use a quick link.

mtntools.com/cat/mt/web/petzle...


Also if people are worried about eye sore seeing chain or the steel biners make sure to use a little spray paint to camo the chain/quick link. Dont spray the clipping biner and the nylon draw.
sunder
From Alsip, Il
Joined Apr 19, 2009
844 points
Jun 6, 2011
Grande Grotto
I've found the OP Gym Biners to be awesome AT FIRST. Then the wire gates get dirty and start sticking open. The OP gate quality doesn't seem up to some other companies. Had similar issues with Dovals in the past...

Camp USA sells a nice Steel Bent Gate WITH a captive pin. They also sell a complete fixed draw with STAINLESS quick link. Also nice.

Climb Tech (Texas) makes PermaDraws with Steel Bent gates as well. They've been catching on in certain areas - The RRG I think...
mattm
From TX
Joined Jun 2, 2006
1,238 points
Jun 6, 2011
Leftwich wrote:
Please do not place chains on Heresy. Lilly is a very high profile area and the most recent park superintendent has not taken a very pro-climbing stance according to the locals and rangers. Furthermore, as read in the climbing managment plan linked below and as noted at all of the kiosk, there is no placing or replacing of fixed hardware without the parks permission. The best advice for handling this situation would come from Matt the chief ranger for the area(I don't remember his last name) who also climbs at Lilly, including Heresy, regularly. You could call the park office and ask for him (423-346-6294). Thanks and good luck. Climbing Managment Plan


I hadn't planned on placing chains, at all.
Grimulus
From Harriman, TN
Joined Oct 17, 2010
0 points
Administrator
Jun 7, 2011
El Chorro
Wow, I didn't know Camp was selling these things. Great deal IMHO. That's what I'd use... for sure.

Camp USA steel perma-draw
Ryan Williams
From London (sort of)
Joined May 10, 2009
1,468 points
Jun 9, 2011
Grande Grotto
Ryan Williams wrote:
Wow, I didn't know Camp was selling these things. Great deal IMHO. That's what I'd use... for sure. Camp USA steel perma-draw


FIXE USA is also in the game. Not quite as nice as the CAMP IMO but pretty decent as well.

LOVE the Fixed Pin Wire Gates.

Fixe Steel Draws
mattm
From TX
Joined Jun 2, 2006
1,238 points
Jun 9, 2011
Camp and Fixe are not bad... if you prefer solid gate over wire gates.

I like wire gates way better.
Pete Spri
Joined Jun 1, 2009
139 points
Jun 9, 2011
Idaho basalt
If there's a sunlight+nylon problem, i've seen draws with some kind of thin nylon tube around the dogbone to protect it from the sun. You could probably do something similar on the cheap with tubular webbing. Justin Brunson
From Broomfield CO
Joined Jun 16, 2010
2,031 points
Jul 16, 2011
Top half of Melifluous
The draws from Climbtech that someone mentioned are nice. I've seen and used them at the New and the Red. I'd be apt to spray paint them though.

climbtechgear.com/PermaDraws/c...
Sam Stephens
Joined Jan 20, 2010
768 points
Jul 16, 2011
Killis Howard wrote:
That must be some tough clip on an 11c to risk access for. Hope that works out for ya.


I see that you posted 3 times so everyone can see what an asshole you are.

It's a completely worn -unsafe- biner. Anyone can fall on any draw, period. The fact is that draw is the easiest on the roof actually, but the biner is worn incredibly deep.

And no, I still haven't done anything.
Grimulus
From Harriman, TN
Joined Oct 17, 2010
0 points
Jul 16, 2011
Goofin' on the Grand after soloing the Upper Exum ...
Steel perma draws on sale now at Fixe: fixeusa.com/sale/sale_0137.htm... Michael Schneiter
From Glenwood Springs, CO
Joined Apr 3, 2002
7,424 points
Jul 21, 2011
Perma-Draws debate aside, I think its a great idea. I would of course check with local crag developers first to make sure it's okay.

I'm sure many of you have read the article regarding perma-draws / biners at the Red and how a worn biner cut someone's rope resulting in an injury.

climbing.about.com/b/2010/10/1...

Many of the draws in the bunkers at Foster Falls in TN also need replacing. If I could climb that hard, I would replace them.
Nrmill261
Joined Jul 21, 2011
5 points


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