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Removing draws from a route
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By Maurice Chaunders
Apr 10, 2014
Colombian Crack
M Sprague wrote:
The thought to save wear by rapping is nice, but missplaced with beefy sport anchors.


Yeah perhaps. I just hate seeing rap rings worn out. I make a point to rap as often as possible, mostly to spite myself.

Also, I climbed today and lowered off a climb, out of laziness.

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By 5.samadhi
Apr 10, 2014
me
you second the climb on the other end of the rope (the part through the draws) once its put up by the leader.

Then you lower off and go to another route.

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By redlude97
Apr 10, 2014
5.samadhi wrote:
you second the climb on the other end of the rope (the part through the draws) once its put up by the leader. Then you lower off and go to another route.

That's nice that you only climb with people at your level that want to do the exact same routes as you.

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By rob bauer
From Golden, CO
Apr 10, 2014
Wow, I must be old. I'd just belay at the anchors and we'd both rap down. (I apparently do climbs my partner wants to do.)

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By Maurice Chaunders
Apr 10, 2014
Colombian Crack
redlude97 wrote:
That's nice that you only climb with people at your level that want to do the exact same routes as you.

Uhmmmm...that's what I do, for the most part...

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By Jacob Smith
From Mill Creek, WA
Apr 11, 2014
Chair Peak, top of first pitch
Its interesting that both sides of this particular debate seems to be making an "of course, everyone does it that way, its a beginner mistake to do otherwise" claim.
Having learned to always rappel after cleaning, I am rather surprised that it is apparently common practice to lower through the chains on steep sport routes, the only people I've ever seen do that are gym climbers who didn't know how to rappel. But then I learned on trad, so it fits the pattern.
I have definitely seen plenty of chains that would wear thin pretty quick, but I climb in areas w/ predominantly vertical walls, so cleaning on rappel is never really a problem, especially if you know the leg wrap trick.
I'm not sure whether to be surprised that steep sport climbing has developed its own set of norms or not, I suppose the danger factors on an overhanging route are just fundamentally different from those on positive or vertical faces.

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By J Achey
Apr 11, 2014
If no belayer had ever climbed with someone who rapped off sport routes, that would be the end of "miscommunication" accidents. Please don't rap off sport routes, unless you are soloing.

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By 5.samadhi
Apr 11, 2014
me
Jacob Smith wrote:
Its interesting that both sides of this particular debate seems to be making an "of course, everyone does it that way, its a beginner mistake to do otherwise" claim. Having learned to always rappel after cleaning, I am rather surprised that it is apparently common practice to lower through the chains on steep sport routes, the only people I've ever seen do that are gym climbers who didn't know how to rappel. But then I learned on trad, so it fits the pattern. I have definitely seen plenty of chains that would wear thin pretty quick, but I climb in areas w/ predominantly vertical walls, so cleaning on rappel is never really a problem, especially if you know the leg wrap trick. I'm not sure whether to be surprised that steep sport climbing has developed its own set of norms or not, I suppose the danger factors on an overhanging route are just fundamentally different from those on positive or vertical faces.

if the chains where then why don't you replace them? the only a few bucks

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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Apr 11, 2014
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.
Jacob Smith wrote:
...But then I learned on trad, so it fits the pattern. ...

That is exactly it. You have to be flexible enough to realize you are dealing with a different animal and adapt your techniques. I too first learned on trad (and bouldering), where if you had fixed anchors they were usually some pins or fixed nuts or tree with a nasty nest of old slings and a couple aluminum rap rings if you were lucky. You definitely want to rap from that stuff. Proper modern sport anchors are built to be lowered off; bomber, beefy and if possible situated where your rope will run cleanly.

Cleaning on lower is much easier. You are hands free and you are not screwing around with leg raps or exposing yourself to rappel errors like misaligned rope ends or not setting it up properly when you are all excited or fatigued. You do have to rely on your belayer, but they are on the ground, rested and the rope is already in the belay device from belaying.

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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Apr 11, 2014
modern man
Jacob Smith wrote:
Its interesting that both sides of this particular debate seems to be making an "of course, everyone does it that way, its a beginner mistake to do otherwise" claim. Having learned to always rappel after cleaning, I am rather surprised that it is apparently common practice to lower through the chains on steep sport routes, the only people I've ever seen do that are gym climbers who didn't know how to rappel. But then I learned on trad, so it fits the pattern. I have definitely seen plenty of chains that would wear thin pretty quick, but I climb in areas w/ predominantly vertical walls, so cleaning on rappel is never really a problem, especially if you know the leg wrap trick. I'm not sure whether to be surprised that steep sport climbing has developed its own set of norms or not, I suppose the danger factors on an overhanging route are just fundamentally different from those on positive or vertical faces.



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By Peter D.
Apr 11, 2014
Set up as if your would rappel but the belayer keeps the climber on belay and the climber raps on a single strand with a Gri Gri and can easily tram in to each draw. This saves wear on the anchors. Climber and belayer must clearly communicate this is how the climber will descend before leaving the ground!

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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Apr 11, 2014
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.
Peter D. wrote:
Set up as if your would rappel but the belayer keeps the climber on belay and the climber raps on a single strand with a Gri Gri and can easily tram in to each draw. This saves wear on the anchors. Climber and belayer must clearly communicate this is how the climber will descend before leaving the ground!

That is paying too much (adding danger and hassle) to have a negligible gain (saving wear on the anchors). Keep it simple!

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By chuffnugget
From Bolder, CO
Apr 11, 2014
Peter, you forgot to add wearing a tinfoil hat while whistling Dixie.

There have been many accidents from fiddling at the anchor. Biners at the chains are best, even though trads make a frowny face cuz that is what gyms do. Replace with old biners as necessary.

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By Jacob Smith
From Mill Creek, WA
Apr 11, 2014
Chair Peak, top of first pitch
David Sahalie wrote:
There have been many accidents from fiddling at the anchor. Biners at the chains are best, even though trads make a frowny face cuz that is what gyms do. Replace with old biners as necessary.


Ironically, the crag I've been to that has the best anchor setups, steel carabiners at the top of most climbs, is also the one with the least sport routes - Trout Creek.

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By 5.samadhi
Apr 11, 2014
me
some people are talking like this anchor Rings carabiners chains are not replaceable. They are easily replaceable.

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By Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Apr 11, 2014
Big Boulder, just a bit downhill from Temple of Kali. Alabama Hills, CA.
Hi all....

Over the years I have learned that there is no best way to get down.

It all dependes on the situation.

I really love the sport anchors at Cochese, Scott Ayres has these anchors that one can not be lowered from! Last climber must rap...

At NJC... stubby chains make you rap.

ORG... giant well maintained Mussys hooks demand that you get down to the ground via a rapid lower off.

ECHO cliffs... they have very worn, old school cold shuts - in questionable stone. I pray right before getting lowered.

The steeper it is - the more difficult it is to clean.

I like the trick about having the follower climb up and remove the first few draws... going to use that one, soon, like this weekend.

Just no hard and fast rules.

Use your brain.

And to the OP.... sometimes it's better to just follow and clean if the route goes sideways or wanders.

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By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Apr 11, 2014
You stay away from mah pig!
Peter D. wrote:
Set up as if your would rappel but the belayer keeps the climber on belay and the climber raps on a single strand with a Gri Gri and can easily tram in to each draw. This saves wear on the anchors. Climber and belayer must clearly communicate this is how the climber will descend before leaving the ground!



This sounds like the very definition of "unnecessary clusterfuck."

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By 5.samadhi
Apr 11, 2014
me
it sounds like the way to do it if you want to make it the most complex and confusing way possible

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