Route Guide - iPhone / Android - Partners - Forum - Photos - Deals - What's New - School of Rock
Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Removing draws from a route
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 2.  1  2   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By beaker
From Novi, MI
Apr 7, 2014
Beaker!

Hi All,

What's the best way to remove all your quick draws from a route while cleaning/repelling down when the route isn't straight vertical, but instead has some horizontal traverses in it?

This past weekend, my friend was climbing a sport route which climbed more like a diagonal line, heading up and then to the right. The anchors were about 30ft over horizonally from the start. After he completed the route, he started to repel down and remove the draws from the route, however the further down he got, the further he was from the route/bolts. We ended up getting them by me pulling on the rope going through the draws to pull him over to it, him unclipping it from the bolt, which then sends him tarzan swinging away... repeat for about 5 draws.

Other than looking ridiculous, we were lucky that it was a pretty open space that the swinging didn't put him in any danger, but I could see if it wasn't as open, swinging could be an issue.

I must assume there's a better way to clean all your gear off a non-vertical route. Suggestions?

Thanks!


FLAG
By will ar
From Boston, MA
Apr 7, 2014

When lowering off clip a spare quickdraw from your belay loop to the other strand of rope, it will keep you close to the bolts so that you can easily remove your quickdraws.


FLAG
By Craig T
From Chicago, IL
Apr 7, 2014

To add, be careful at the last (first?) bolt. If you're using the quickdraw method (sometimes called "tramming"), you can a) unclip your tram, unclip the last quickdraw, and go flying, b) unclip the quickdraw but not the tram, then you go flying while the belayer gets dragged in the dirt behind you, or c) bypass the last quickdraw, leave it up, then retrieve if through other means (bouldering up to it, fancy stick clip tricks, etc). I recommend c unless you really like swinging, or for some reason really want to find yourself in a pile of dirt with your belayer.


FLAG
By Eric Engberg
Apr 7, 2014

Have someone 2nd the route.
Lower don't rap.
Tram in


FLAG
By James Hicks
From Denver, CO
Apr 7, 2014
Rapping off of South Six Shooter.

Craig T wrote:
To add, be careful at the last (first?) bolt. If you're using the quickdraw method (sometimes called "tramming"), you can a) unclip your tram, unclip the last quickdraw, and go flying, b) unclip the quickdraw but not the tram, then you go flying while the belayer gets dragged in the dirt behind you, or c) bypass the last quickdraw, leave it up, then retrieve if through other means (bouldering up to it, fancy stick clip tricks, etc). I recommend c unless you really like swinging, or for some reason really want to find yourself in a pile of dirt with your belayer.


^ This! I have seen a belayer get thrown off of the side of the crag and down the hill because the climber being lowered (off of a really overhung route) didn't unclip the tram before unclipping the last draw.


FLAG
By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Apr 7, 2014
You stay away from mah pig!

First of all, don't repel the route. Don't rappel, either. Lower.

Second, as others have said, don't unclip the last draw without unclipping your tram first, or you will yank your belayer off, you'll both go flying, and hilarity will ensue.

Third, it is often a good idea to clip a draw or two from your harness's belay loop, into the draw that is attached to the second-to-last bolt that you're cleaning (usually the second one that you clipped on the way up). Once you are clipped in directly to this draw, have your belayer give you a lot of slack, and reach down and unclip the bottom draw (first bolt of the route) below you. This will often help you take less of a swing, and in general really relieves the hardest draw cleaning.


FLAG
By beaker
From Novi, MI
Apr 7, 2014
Beaker!

Awesome! Thanks all!

So, I take it that it's not bad to lower a climber off the fixed gear anchors in these situations? I've always learned to rappel down a route in order to reduce any wear on the anchor rings.


FLAG
By Alvaro Arnal
Administrator
From Aspen, CO
Apr 7, 2014
Pup Tent OS

In most cases it's acceptable and proper for the last person climbing and cleaning the route to lower directly through the anchor. This is the preferred method; it's safer than rappelling and as noted above easier to clean the route on the way down.

What's not acceptable is to rig your toprope directly through the anchor and have multiple people climb on it. This is the scenario that causes accelerated wear on the anchor and is bad form.


FLAG
 
By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Apr 7, 2014
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

Generally with sport routes, if there are good heavy steel rings, clippies, mussy hooks or biners and the anchor is situated so your rope will not be sawing over an edge, it is best to be lowered. That is what the anchors are designed for, unlike some trad anchors. NEVER lower off of aluminum rap rings (those things should really be abolished for permanent anchors. Use stainless steel if using rings). Worried about wearing the anchor? Donate to local folks who do anchor replacements and buy some yourself to replace ones that you find that are worn or missing.


FLAG
By JCM
From Henderson, NV
Apr 7, 2014

beaker wrote:
Awesome! Thanks all! So, I take it that it's not bad to lower a climber off the fixed gear anchors in these situations? I've always learned to rappel down a route in order to reduce any wear on the anchor rings.


The gear is there to be used, and "reasonable use" of fixed gear most certainly includes lowering through it. Lowering has many advantages, including speed, convenience, safety, and ease of cleaning. All experienced sport climbers, including those who put that fixed gear in, advocate lowering instead of rappelling. The idea of rappelling to save the fixed gear is somewhat out of date, and is nowadays advocated only by gumbies and the crusty old school (basically the the same thing, but I digress...). The current school of thought is to use the fixed gear, and actively replace it when it wears out. If you feel a pang of guilt over wearing out the fixed gear, keep a couple of steel quicklinks or oval biners in the sport climbing pack, and do your part in maintaining the fixed gear by occasionally replacing worn-out lowering links or biners. Or donate some $$ to the local anchor replacement fund.


FLAG
By George Bracksieck
Apr 7, 2014

Unless the lowered climber trams in, unclipping the lowest bolt of a traversing, diagonaling or overhanging pitch could suddenly generate a lot of slack, dropping the climber to the ground. Even if trammed in, the climber could still hit the ground after the belayer is dragged across the ground.


FLAG
By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Apr 7, 2014
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.

JCM wrote:
...The current school of thought is to use the fixed gear, and actively replace it when it wears out. If you feel a pang of guilt over wearing out the fixed gear, keep a couple of steel quicklinks...and do your part in maintaining the fixed gear by occasionally replacing worn-out lowering links.


This.


FLAG
By cfuttner
Apr 7, 2014

JCM wrote:
All experienced sport climbers, including those who put that fixed gear in, advocate lowering instead of rappelling. The idea of rappelling to save the fixed gear is somewhat out of date, and is nowadays advocated only by gumbies and the crusty old school (basically the the same thing, but I digress...).


This thread will now deteriorate into 20 pages of flamethrowing in 3....2....1


FLAG
By JCM
From Henderson, NV
Apr 7, 2014

cfuttner wrote:
This thread will now deteriorate into 20 pages of flamethrowing in 3....2....1


I sure hope so. I could use some Monday entertainment.


FLAG
By beaker
From Novi, MI
Apr 7, 2014
Beaker!

cfuttner wrote:
This thread will now deteriorate into 20 pages of flamethrowing in 3....2....1


Lol. Please don't :)

I appreciate all the responses I've gotten and did not want this thread to turn into a tangential debate. :)


FLAG
By Darren Mabe
From Flagstaff, AZ
Apr 7, 2014
wham bam hand jam. Wrapping up the final moves of Twist of Fate, Oak Creek Canyon. <br /> <br />photo: Blake McCord


FLAG
 
By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
Apr 7, 2014
You stay away from mah pig!

beaker wrote:
I've always learned to rappel down a route in order to reduce any wear on the anchor rings.


Even rapping puts wear on the anchors. It's not much, but over time it can be a lot.

The best way to minimize this wear is to have the last climber in the group unclip the draws and rope from the anchor, and then jump to his death. It's really the only responsible thing to do.


FLAG
By Stich
From Colorado Springs, Colorado
Apr 7, 2014
Coffee after freezing our asses off near James Peak.

beaker wrote:
I've always learned to rappel down a route in order to reduce any wear on the anchor rings.


If you are on a route with traverses or severely overhung, please just have your totally cool partner lower you off. It is a lot of hassle to clean a route on rappel alone and you can easily screw it up.


FLAG
By Maurice Chaunders
Apr 7, 2014
Colombian Crack

I'm
Not trying to throw flames, but isn't "current school of thought" a consensus of what people say and do? I almost always rap. To save my rope and to save my gear. I don't do a ton of sport climbing, by when I do, I never mind lowering after cleaning an anchor.

Regarding the comments about "replacing the gear when it gets worn out", it seems to me that most people just "use and abuse and hope someone replaces it". This is irresponsible and not te behavior we should be encouraging. It's faster and more convenient to lower, yes. But I don't think justifies lazy behavior.

When I climb with a partner on a sport route, one guy leads, sets a 2 draw anchor, and lowers. Next guy leads, cleans anchor, raps, we move on to the next climb.


FLAG
By Jorden Kass
Apr 7, 2014

Maurice Chaunders wrote:
When I climb with a partner on a sport route, one guy leads, sets a 2 draw anchor, and lowers. Next guy leads, cleans anchor, raps, we move on to the next climb.


This only works if the second can climb at the same level. This doesn't always happen and I have been on both ends, climbing with somebody much better that I can't follow on their hard lead and leading with someone who has trouble following mine.


FLAG
By redlude97
Apr 7, 2014

Maurice Chaunders wrote:
about "replacing the gear when it gets worn out", it seems to me that most people just "use and abuse and hope someone replaces it". This is irresponsible and not te behavior we should be encouraging.

It's not abuse if that is the developer's intent for the gear he puts in. Developers in many area install anchors expecting and wanting people to lower off of them and do so themselves when I run into them at the crag.


FLAG
By Maurice Chaunders
Apr 8, 2014
Colombian Crack

Jorden Kass wrote:
This only works if the second can climb at the same level. This doesn't always happen and I have been on both ends, climbing with somebody much better that I can't follow on their hard lead and leading with someone who has trouble following mine.
It will work fine with one climber. Just climb, and rap. No top rope necessary.

redlude97 wrote:
It's not abuse if that is the developer's intent for the gear he puts in. Developers in many area install anchors expecting and wanting people to lower off of them and do so themselves when I run into them at the crag.
I agree. The consensus is about what we say and do. If you meet people who lower through their gear, they certainly intend for others to do so.

I don't always climb at my home crag, and don't know who set up my anchors. Out of respect for the gear, I choose to rap. We may disagree on practice, but certainly we can agree that taking more time to rap is respectful. I recently climbed in RR and rapped off every climb at the sunny and steep wall. It actually sucked cuz I ended up 3rd everytime, and my 2 buddies took me off belay and then looked for another climb, ate something, or did nothing. It's nice to take someone off belay and then get your gear together, put your shoes on, load a bowl...define productivity how you want to.

Furthermore, would you press the brake pedal when driving downhill, or shift to a lower gear? You may wear out your brake pads, but you can just replace them. Catastrophic failure be damned. When it's time for them to be replaced, they will have gotten replaced. Probably by someone who knows what they are doing.


FLAG
By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
Apr 8, 2014
Mt. Agassiz

Maurice Chaunders wrote:
Furthermore, would you press the brake pedal when driving downhill, or shift to a lower gear? You may wear out your brake pads, but you can just replace them. Catastrophic failure be damned. When it's time for them to be replaced, they will have gotten replaced. Probably by someone who knows what they are doing.


...right


FLAG
By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Apr 8, 2014
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lichen covered look from scrubbing a new route.

The thought to save wear by rapping is nice, but missplaced with beefy sport anchors. I would be willing to bet the vast majority of eqipers of routes with sport anchors prefer that you lower off rather than rap. We put them there for people to use. Watching people needlessly rap off them makes my stomach churn. I feel like I want to walk around the corner so I don't have to watch some gumbie crater. (only slightly exaggerated)


FLAG
 
By Ryan Watts
From Bishop, CA
Apr 8, 2014
Flatirons

Maurice Chaunders wrote:
It will work fine with one climber. Just climb, and rap. No top rope necessary. I agree. The consensus is about what we say and do. If you meet people who lower through their gear, they certainly intend for others to do so. I don't always climb at my home crag, and don't know who set up my anchors. Out of respect for the gear, I choose to rap. We may disagree on practice, but certainly we can agree that taking more time to rap is respectful. I recently climbed in RR and rapped off every climb at the sunny and steep wall. It actually sucked cuz I ended up 3rd everytime, and my 2 buddies took me off belay and then looked for another climb, ate something, or did nothing. It's nice to take someone off belay and then get your gear together, put your shoes on, load a bowl...define productivity how you want to. Furthermore, would you press the brake pedal when driving downhill, or shift to a lower gear? You may wear out your brake pads, but you can just replace them. Catastrophic failure be damned. When it's time for them to be replaced, they will have gotten replaced. Probably by someone who knows what they are doing.


Try this on a route that is actually steep and let me know how that works out for you.


FLAG
By thomas ellis
From abq
Apr 8, 2014
Mint jullop

The "Chuffmo", a technique I find usefull when cleaning steep sport routes is (safest if you use a grigri) have the belayer start climbing up the route. This allows the climber to lower and the belayer should be able to grab the first few draws. Belayer lowers back to ground and climber takes softer swing high off the ground. Not for all situations but a nice trick just the same.


FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 2.  1  2   Next>   Last>>