Redpointing/Projecting?

Hey everyone,

So I shared a crag this weekend with some pretty strong climbers who were projecting a route. They seemed to have a pretty systematic way of approaching it, working particular sections at a time, etc, and it occurred to me that I don't really have much of a system for projecting beyond hang dogging to "get up" a route and then trying it repeatedly until I can lead it clean. Is there an accepted/recommended method for red pointing, and/or what do you guys do? Do you toprope the route first to work out the moves, then lead it...or jump straight on lead? How many attempts do you make in a day? Do you "lap" the crux by climbing it repeatedly until it feels comfortable? Top-down?

Depends.

I just climb for fun, whatever I feel like doing that day I do.

A lot of people try top-down linking after hang-dogging to the top. I just flail until it goes, or quit and tell myself the route is stupid anyway.

Get a stick clip and learn how to aid through a route using one on lead. Go bolt to bolt and work out each individual section, giving extra focus to the cruxes.

Try this and you will be a better stronger climber and you won’t look like a sissy gym climber. Climb until you fall, then you are immediately lowered back down and you try again from the ground up there is no hang dogging to work out the moves. When you get tired or are ready it is your buddy’s turn… Rinse lather repeat until you send or are so pumped that its beer-thirty.

Have fun with it and one day all comes togheter. Sounds to simple but is the way it is, is climbing not everyday is the same some days I do things that I don't expect and other days I can't even do wath I expect.

I've watched veteran climbers try moves inbetween bolts. If they can't pull through that section, and they're close enough to the next bolt, they clip it and aid on the draw to clip the rope to try the next section. Since I started trying that myself, I'd skip to the next section and try the holds. What makes THIS interesting and fun is, sometimes, you'll find a section that's much easier than the harder ones below it, and this will motivate you to boost your efforts in hopes that you make it to the section that's easier, that'll feel like a good rest compared to the others!

Yeah. The "no takes" bottom-up approach is great for climbs at your level (and overcoming the fear of falling), but it doesn't really apply if you're leading something at your level. Once you've worked out the sequence? Absolutely. Aiding on the draws is an interesting idea...definitely not glamorous, but hey...if it gets you to 5.15...lol.

BrianWS wrote:Get a stick clip and learn how to aid through a route using one on lead. Go bolt to bolt and work out each individual section, giving extra focus to the cruxes.

This. A lot of time you can reach through a crux as well using the draw to help. I work the route bottom up, and dial the cruxes that way. I also dial the rests. I think a lot of people forget to figure out exactly how to use the rests and easy sections to maximize their recovery between cruxes.

Here is some shitheadded but probably useful spray/advice:
Look at the ticklists and climbing resumes of the people giving advice here. Draw your own conclusions about the merit of their suggestions.

No offense is intended here. Just suggesting that you take experience into account.

BrianWS wrote:Here is some shitheadded but probably useful spray/advice: Look at the ticklists and climbing resumes of the people giving advice here. Draw your own conclusions about the merit of their suggestions. No offense is intended here. Just suggesting that you take experience into account.

Both of BrianWS's posts are the best suggestions on the thread so far. Listen to him.

BrianWS wrote:Get a stick clip and learn how to aid through a route using one on lead. Go bolt to bolt and work out each individual section, giving extra focus to the cruxes.

I'm not the best climber, but I started aiding sport routes with a stick-clip this year and it has helped me a ton. Learning moves on TR in a low stress environment is more efficient IMO. It also saves a lot of energy which might translate into an extra redpoint run or two.

Of course, I get mercilessly shamed for doing so...so there's always that.

If you are interested in going the stick-clip route, I recommend one you can clip to your harness like the Trango beta stick.

kennoyce wrote: Both of BrianWS's posts are the best suggestions on the thread so far. Listen to him.

BrianWS taught me everything I know about this sport. He took me by the hand, and made me the climbing man I am today. He is the bee's pajamas. Listen to him, and you will expand your capabilities beyond what you thought possible for yourself.

But seriously. He has some good advice, and he's in the same boat as me (weekend warriors with a minute amount of time to devote to projecting). My two cents:

First thing to do when opening a new project is to get to the top. It's pointless and time-wasting to take repeated whips at a crux because you're guessing which crimp to deadpoint to when you could simply stick your way past and figure out the holds. Now you have to figure out what level project this is for you, and adjust your tactics accordingly. Once you reach a certain level, the "try things until they go" approach will be a tremendous waste of time.

In my mind, there are three levels of projecting/redpointing. The first is the Second Go For Sure. This is where you screwed up the onsight because of a poorly placed foot or a mistaken sequence, not because the climb is physically beyond you. In this case, I only do the crux once or so and then take it to the chains. I have a pretty good head for beta, and I know that I won't screw up the parts I onsighted before. Here's the key: don't screw up the second go just because the climb is within your level. Give the climb your full effort and attention. If you need to rehearse a section, do it. Good attempts are a precious resource, and it would be dumb to waste one of them on a beta flub.

The next is the Day/Weekend Project. These are the ones where you're certain it won't go second try. Perhaps all the moves went on the go, but it'll take another few goes to figure out "linking beta". Perhaps the dog sequence didn't work with a pump, or that rest wasn't as good on redpoint. On these, I'll reclimb larger sequences in order to figure out how I'll feel on the go, and adjust beta as needed after my redpoint burns. I find that pumpier, power endurance lines tend to fall into this category, but low percentage cruxy climbs can also land here.

Finally, there's the Balls Out Project. This is a climb that is very hard for you. You need one to several sessions to do individual moves. You have several milestones to reach, such as doing every move, or linking the crux clean. Then you progress into doing links. A link can begin from the ground, or from crux 1 to crux 2. These can be the best and/or the most frustrating projects you can embark on. Beware, and don't get too obsessed.

A nice balanced diet of these types of projecting is the most rewarding for me. You should really strive to maximize efficiency. Before someone chimes in with "I just climb for fun, and do whatever until it works", think of it this way: the more streamlined and fast you can get the redpointing process, the more climbs you get to experience.

Haha, I must give credit where credit's due... you got me, Christian. To my credit, I taught the skinny bastard how to climb cracks, so we'll call it somewhat even.

In all seriousness, I was able to push my redpoint grade by two letters after a single season of "cheating" my way up routes with a stick - a technique taught and well-vetted by a climber with one of the fastest rates of progression that I've ever seen. That's significant considering that my maximum onsight and redpoint grade had been at the exact same number for years.

So you actually take the stick clip up with you? How does it not get in the way? Lol...sounds crazy, but potentially effective. Getting clips, particularly hanging the draws if permadraws aren't available, is definitely one of the most challenging things about leading at your level. I'm getting to a point where I feel like I'm too comfortable...doing lots of on-sights at my level but not enough serious projecting that push my abilities.

Ted Pinson wrote:So you actually take the stick clip up with you? How does it not get in the way? Lol...sounds crazy, but potentially effective.

You will want a telescoping painters pole with a Superclip, Squid, or other appropriate attachment. I like the Superclip.

1. If low on a route, have your partner fully extend the telescoping pole (i.e. painter's pole), have them pass it up to you.

2. If higher on route, go in direct to your bolt. Pass a bight of rope down to the belayer. They attach the stick to your bight, you haul it up.

Once you have the stick with you, you'll need to go in direct to your current bolt. Put your draw on the stick, pull enough slack to reach the next bolt, load the draw with rope, and clip.
You can pass the stick back down or attach it to a quickdraw and hang it on the lower bolt. Now you are free to climb without a heavy and awkward pole attached to your gear loop.

Obviously, the safety concern here is that you have gone in direct to a single piece of protection. This is necessary at crags with further bolt spacing (for instance, the New River Gorge), but not at others. Don't use this technique if you are at all less than certain about the integrity of your hardware!

At some crags, bolts are close enough for you to go in direct to your second-to-last piece of protection. While still essentially on toprope, this allows you to also tie a bight on the belayer's end of the rope, connecting the bight with a locking carabiner to your belay loop. Now you are directly anchored to a lower bolt with your draw and tethered to the upper bolt with the rope. Voila, you now have redundancy as you clip two bolts above you.

Step 1: Make sure you can do every move in isolation. Do whatever it takes to get up: take, stick clip, grab draws, whatever.

Step 2: Link every move between clipping stances. Pay special attention to dialing in the crux moves. Phase out the tactics above.

Step 3: Link sections between good/decent rests. Break the route down into 2 or 3 sections and perfect the sections.

Step 4: Redpoint attempts. When you fall, lower to the last decent rest and try to link to the chains from there.

Step 5: Send that shit.

Step 6: Enjoy your stoke for a day or two and then start obsessing about your next project.

BrianWS wrote: You will want a telescoping painters pole with a Superclip, Squid, or other appropriate attachment. I like the Superclip. 1. If low on a route, have your partner fully extend the telescoping pole (i.e. painter's pole), have them pass it up to you. 2. If higher on route, go in direct to your bolt. Pass a bight of rope down to the belayer. They attach the stick to your bight, you haul it up. Once you have the stick with you, you'll need to go in direct to your current bolt. Put your draw on the stick, pull enough slack to reach the next bolt, load the draw with rope, and clip. You can pass the stick back down or attach it to a quickdraw and hang it on the lower bolt. Now you are free to climb without a heavy and awkward pole attached to your gear loop. Obviously, the safety concern here is that you have gone in direct to a single piece of protection. This is necessary at crags with further bolt spacing (for instance, the New River Gorge), but not at others. Don't use this technique if you are at all less than certain about the integrity of your hardware! At some crags, bolts are close enough for you to go in direct to your second-to-last piece of protection. While still essentially on toprope, this allows you to also tie a bight on the belayer's end of the rope, connecting the bight with a locking carabiner to your belay loop. Now you are directly anchored to a lower bolt with your draw and tethered to the upper bolt with the rope. Voila, you now have redundancy as you clip two bolts above you.

Problem is the bolts are 50-60ft apart on the stuff I want to climb =/ Any thoughts a a longer stick clip?

ViperScale wrote: Problem is the bolts are 50-60ft apart on the stuff I want to climb =/ Any thoughts a a longer stick clip?

That's the length of a route, dude. In that case, you need trad gear in between the bolts. Are you sure?????

ViperScale wrote: Problem is the bolts are 50-60ft apart on the stuff I want to climb =/ Any thoughts a a longer stick clip?

Probably projecting the Bachar-Yerian or Snake Dike.

Ted Pinson wrote:So you actually take the stick clip up with you? How does it not get in the way? Lol...sounds crazy, but potentially effective. Getting clips, particularly hanging the draws if permadraws aren't available, is definitely one of the most challenging things about leading at your level. I'm getting to a point where I feel like I'm too comfortable...doing lots of on-sights at my level but not enough serious projecting that push my abilities.

Look at pictures of big wall aid climbing. Those people are racked upon racked! A stick clip with a dozen quickdraws is nothing.