Redpointing Multipitch Routes, does it really matter?

I'm a pretty goal oriented climber, like many, I like to send stuff. As I do more awesome long routes I'm starting to ask myself if I should say 'I've done the XYZ route' if I fell or hung on it.

On one hand I think if you can safely get up a route, and you didn't have to aid through anything, you've essentially done it; most of us aren't pro climbers so its not like anyone is really keeping score.

On the other hand you got to have a sick MProj ticklist, it's certainly more impressive to redpoint or onsight a route, and you can brag about it.

Obviously the thing that matters most is not lying to other people or embellishing yourself...

What do you think?

Depends. Hans Florine french-frees the routes he climbs so he can do them in a day. I know climbers have done that for Half Dome so they don't need to be 5.12 climbers to enjoy a classic route, and be able to do it light and fast.

On the other hand, I have done serenity crack, but it wasn't clean and I didn't get the redpoint, but I'll go back and do it because it is such a nice line and the approach is easy. If the approach was 4 hours long, I'd say F-that, spend that time on another project.

Climbing is pretty contrived, and the better the style the more contrived it is, not that that is bad just a fact. If you want the red point, if it matters to YOU go back for it. If you don't that's fine to, just don't go spraying around at the campfire about how you onsighted every pitch, after you hang dogged the whole route.

If you fell on Serenity Crack and went back up and did the pitch in my opinion you climbed the route, if you followed every pitch, well thats a different story...

No matter how we climb any route it can always be climbed better and in better style, if following bothers you go do it again and get it out of your head.

Climbing is a great sport because I believe that you are your own coach, competition and referee. Thus I believe that success is determined by the individual. As long as you’re not lying to others about your achievements that is. Last year I attempted to free climb moonlight buttress. On my leads I took some falls, and said “take” a few too many times. Although, for every pitch that the leader couldn’t get clean, the follower did. We deemed it a “team tron-sight.” It felt like a massive success for the onsight attempt, and most importantly it was one of the best and most memorable days of my climbing “career.” I leave tomorrow to go back to moonlight with the same partner, to alternate leads from our previous attempt. Who knows, if I can “tred-point” the pitches that I attempted to lead last time, or even redpoint a few of the ones I tronned last time, then I will consider it a success. But really I don’t care about the scorecard. All I care about is giving it my all, and having a great time doing it, because that is what climbing is all about to me.

With that being said, do I have a list of single pitch routes that I am trying to redpoint? Absolutely. Why is it different? I really don’t know, but for some reason ( for me ) it is. I think single pitch routes have a different characteristic. It’s not just the redpoint either, my goal is to climb them in the best possible style. To make it feel like 5.8, placing just the right amount of gear in the right places. Even if I onsight something hard, but I feel like I could climb it in better style, I will feel compelled to go back and get in the style that I am satisfied with.

Who knows? All I know is that, if you're not having fun, then you're doing it wrong.

Jon Rhoderick wrote:I'm a pretty goal oriented climber, like many, I like to send stuff. As I do more awesome long routes I'm starting to ask myself if I should say 'I've done the XYZ route' if I fell or hung on it. On one hand I think if you can safely get up a route, and you didn't have to aid through anything, you've essentially done it; most of us aren't pro climbers so its not like anyone is really keeping score. On the other hand you got to have a sick MProj ticklist, it's certainly more impressive to redpoint or onsight a route, and you can brag about it. Obviously the thing that matters most is not lying to other people or embellishing yourself... What do you think?

You shouldn't lie to yourself or embellish your performance to yourself either. If you got up XYZ with falls or hangs you did just that. You 'did it' with falls or hangs.

Redpointing Multipitch Routes, does it really matter?

Partly summarizing what others have said ...

To me? Yes. It just personally matters. I'll return to a route to resolve having been off route, pulled on gear, fell, didn't lead a pitch that would have challenged me on lead, etc.. And I won't even touch the subject of whether I should be up front / honest with myself about my climbing ability.

To my climbing partners? If I imply that my lead style was redpoint or onsight and it wasn't, knowing me they may draw false conclusions about whether they can have a similar time on the route. And when it comes to run out or X terrain, those conclusions especially matter.

To others who don't "know" me? Probably not - at least to them. I'm just a weekend warrior, neither striving for an article about me in a mag nor for sponsorship, etc.. So it probably doesn't matter to others unless they are deciding whether to climb with me and never have - then it matters.

Funny, the first thing I thought of after reading your question was Tommy Caldwell and the Dawn Wall project. Pretty sure it matters to him!

For you, I would suggest not being preoccupied with what other people think about your climbing resume and to go climb things in whatever fashion you see fit.

There is no cheating in rock climbing, only lying. Get up however the hell you want, pull on cams, stand on bolts, toprope.. who cares. Just call it what it was when you talk about it.

Sadly, the majority of the multipitch routes I do have some degree of asterisk attached to them. When I talk about them, obviously I've 'done' them, but haven't yet 'sent' them. Just treat it like a single pitch climb. You've done Churning a million times, but you haven't yet sent it.

The interesting thing is if we were to truly parallel single pitch climbing, you would have to lead every pitch, from the ground, without falling and re-leading to truly red point a multipitch route. Obviously this is not the case and I'm by no means advocating for it.

greg t wrote: Climbing is a great sport because I believe that you are your own coach, competition and referee. Thus I believe that success is determined by the individual. As long as you’re not lying to others about your achievements that is. Last year I attempted to free climb moonlight buttress. On my leads I took some falls, and said “take” a few too many times. Although, for every pitch that the leader couldn’t get clean, the follower did. We deemed it a “team tron-sight.” It felt like a massive success for the onsight attempt, and most importantly it was one of the best and most memorable days of my climbing “career.” I leave tomorrow to go back to moonlight with the same partner, to alternate leads from our previous attempt. Who knows, if I can “tred-point” the pitches that I attempted to lead last time, or even redpoint a few of the ones I tronned last time, then I will consider it a success. But really I don’t care about the scorecard. All I care about is giving it my all, and having a great time doing it, because that is what climbing is all about to me. With that being said, do I have a list of single pitch routes that I am trying to redpoint? Absolutely. Why is it different? I really don’t know, but for some reason ( for me ) it is. I think single pitch routes have a different characteristic. It’s not just the redpoint either, my goal is to climb them in the best possible style. To make it feel like 5.8, placing just the right amount of gear in the right places. Even if I onsight something hard, but I feel like I could climb it in better style, I will feel compelled to go back and get in the style that I am satisfied with. Who knows? All I know is that, if you're not having fun, then you're doing it wrong.

yeah this ^^. I'm not grade oriented at all. More over just want to be in high places out in the wild, and the cool places in nature where my mind and body can take me. Honestly the question you are asking doesn't even cross my mind when i'm on a multipitch. Cragging..maybe, but multi is all about being there and the experience.

Like Greg said..."if you aren't having fun, you're doing it wrong", but haha as Mark Twight said "it doesn't have to be fun to be fun".

I agree with the poster that said their is no cheating, only lying.

I did routes this year where I led every pitch, and others where I swung leads. I consider both styles to be sends as long as I was able to get up every pitch without weighting the rope.

I think the gold standard of climbing is to onsight the entire route, ground up, no falls, but how realistic is that on a big, hard, multi-pitch route? I think you are more likely to pul the rope and try a pitch again if you want the redpoint.

That said, your style and your definition of a send will have lots to do with your climbing partners and local community. Around here (Pacific Northwest) I think the standard accepted redpoint of a multi-pitch route is that each pitch must be led clean from belay to belay, if this means lowering off, pulling the rope and trying again, so be it. The follower must follow clean (they have an easier route, but only one chance to get it right).

Define your standard (maybe it is not easy), and strive to live up to it, that is the best you can do.

greg t wrote: I tronned last time,

What does that mean? As far as I know, a tron is a climbing robot so the statement is hard for me to understand.

r.c

Seth Kane wrote: So does hanging solely to clean stuck gear count as clean? I'm of the anything goes mindset. If I'm going to have more fun/move quicker/maybe only be able to climb a pitch if I pull on gear, I do it. The goal is to get out and have a good time and get to some cool places, not to have some ego trip about all the hard routes I sent. And if you french free hard enough, it's still a challenge.

Sounds like you have a standard set for yourself, which is different then my standard, there is no right or wrong, just what you define for yourself.

Hanging is hanging in my book. I have spent time practicing cleaning gear just to make it easier on those big hard multi-pitch routes. OCD? Maybe, but I play by my own standards.

rob.calm wrote: What does that mean? As far as I know, a tron is a climbing robot so the statement is hard for me to understand. r.c

tron or tronsight - to onsight or flash a pitch while on top rope.

Nick Stayner wrote:Funny, the first thing I thought of after reading your question was Tommy Caldwell and the Dawn Wall project. Pretty sure it matters to him! For you, I would suggest not being preoccupied with what other people think about your climbing resume and to go climb things in whatever fashion you see fit.

Tommy Caldwell cares about leading every pitch clean, but several of the pitches have pre-placed gear.

Is it a pink point? or red point? Are hanging belays aid when going for a free ascent?

Questions .... questions ..,. questions!

Well past time to get out climbing and ponder life. :-)

Matter to whom? You only have yourself to answer to. It sure as hell does not matter to me.

Alex Lowe pulled off feats that left other climbers in awe." Despite widespread praise, Lowe remained humble and discounted the notion of any "best climber." He was later quoted in the American Alpine Journal (AAJ) as saying, "The best climber in the world is the one having the most fun!"

Who give a F**K what you call it. Do your thing. Chances are if you are spraying no one is listening anyway, and if they are they probably dont care. I climbed The Womb (11B) on the north side of Looking Glass yesterday. Aided the 11B crux on pitch three and was rewarded with the best 9+ finger crack I have ever climbed. Call it what you want. French free, pussy point, aid practice, etc. I dont call it anything but a great day.

Q = ...does it really matter?

A = Only as much as you want it to matter.

tron is the opposite of troff

Didn't Dave Chapelle have a character named Tron?

... and is "tron" really a phrase the kids are using these days?

"I just tronned that climb. No way its a 5.9. It is more like 5.8+ at best. Maybe only 5.8. "

NC Rock Climber wrote:Didn't Dave Chapelle have a character named Tron? ... "

Why yes...yes he does

Fizif