Red tags - How long is too long?

As a developer my self I have red tagged projects while equiping and working a route. Luckily I've never had to wait more than a month to remove the tag and open up the route (I'm a little OCD). As I look around some of my local crags I've noticed tags that have been up for over a year. The routes have laid dormant as the equipers are off focused on other adventures (which is awesome). I completely respect the developers for wanting to finish what they've started, and to embrace that warm fuzzy feeling you get on an FA. But at what point is it too long? A year? 2 years? Never?

One of the best parts of developing is hearing that others enjoy/ hate your hard work. So why leave a tag on for soo long?

I say 1 year is respectable. But what do you all think?

I found some flaming in an Old Thread, but very few people said anything about how long is too long?

Yeah what the hell is the deal with Fire and Lightning(Thunder and Lightning?) at The Gym at Shelf Road (Just right of Spontaneous Combustion)? In the Knapp guide it's got a Name, Grade (5.12c), Description, and # of bolts. However the first bolt has been removed, the 2nd bolt has a bolt through the actual hanger preventing anyone from getting on it. If you goto the back of the book it's listed as a Project, but not on the page describing the route. I'm pretty sure the new Bob-D book has it as a project as well.

Knapp's guide is from 2005. Not that I'm itching to get on this, but did the equipper move, get injured (I pray not), stop climbing, etc..? I respect the right of the equipper, but it might be time to let someone else have a shot at it.

I agree, one year is about right for "normal" routes. However, climbing history is full of FA's that took many seasons or even years to complete, so if the developer is still actively working the route, I think the honorable thing is to let them have it until they send or give up.

Monomaniac wrote:I agree, one year is about right for "normal" routes. However, climbing history is full of FA's that took many seasons or even years to complete, so if the developer is still actively working the route, I think the honorable thing is to let them have it until they send or give up.

I agree. If they working it let them have it. But it bugs me to see a route lay dormant, yet when you ask the developer they say "Oh I'm gonna go start working it soon". 6 months later you bring it up again and they still havn't touched it. I'm just obsessive really.

A year seems acceptable to me as well... The old adage used to be once the tag had faded to white it was fair game. Re the route at the gym you mentioned Jeff. I know Dave D. has a project he is actively working over there (and is close on) - that may be it...

Generally 11 inches or so of webbing is plenty to tie an overhand

1/2" or 1"?

I think that as long as you are actively working it (and have a realistic shot of sending) people should stay off. If you're not actively working it (and you're not waiting for training/weather/recovering from injury or something like that) you should open it up.

Another good question is how many active red-tagged projects the community should honor for one person. I understand it can be easier to bolt a bunch of things at once and then climb them all another day, so guess I'm OK with bolting a handful of routes at a cliff and then working through the projects at a reasonable pace. I'm not cool with bolting dozens of projects at multiple crags and red tagging them all when there is no chance of the person sending them all in a reasonable amount of time. This sort of thing is common in Kentucky, and is annoying. I have nothing wrong with bolting tons of routes that you have no chance of sending, but don't red tag them because A) either it's an obscure area nobody else is interested in developing, so red tags are unnecessary or B) it's a popular area other people are interested in developing, and so you are selfishly bogarting routes from other developers and prospective climbers in general.

DISCLAIMER: This is my opinion only. As with all "rules" in climbing, my default setting is that the choice resides with the individual...choose to red tag or not and choose to honor red tags or not...all at your own peril.

If you start it finish it. If a guy is working one route regularly leave it for that guy. If you keep working it you will get it. If you don't get it give it to a buddy. I have a seen a guy bolt 4-5 routes and not even try to finish them just so other guys wouldn't clean and bolt them. To me that is stealing.

I'm sorry, but did anyone, anywhere, at any time give a remote shit about who got the FA on a sport route? Huh? No, that sort of thing isn't even usually recorded. The whole red tag issue is completely stupid. I never tagged any of the routes I bolted. It never occurred to me to care about it.

johnL wrote: The red tag seems respected even when there is no red tag.

well put and has been my experience too ;)

Send the route, don't report it?
There's no bonus on 8a.spray for doing a FA.

Let me elaborate, John. I assume that the route setter already worked the moves out and decided where to put the bolts. So they didn't get the FFA, I don't care. They had the vision of the line. That is what makes FAs interesting in trad lines. Someone discovers the line and gives it a go. That to me is worth noting. But take a look at any sport climbing guide book and you'll be lucky to find any note whatsoever about who got the FFA. Only the route setter is mentioned, usually. No offense to who got the FFA, of course. It just doesn't count as historical information of any note. Sorry.

Stich wrote: But take a look at any sport climbing guide book and you'll be lucky to find any note whatsoever about who got the FFA. Only the route setter is mentioned, usually. No offense to who got the FFA, of course. It just doesn't count as historical information of any note. Sorry.

Weird - in most of my guidebooks the FA (or FFA if you prefer) is listed for sport routes, and the equipper is not.

Yep any sport climbing book I have owned has listed the FA. But I agree I don't care at all on sport routes.

Jeremy Kasmann wrote: Weird - in most of my guidebooks the FA (or FFA if you prefer) is listed for sport routes, and the equipper is not.

See, that's worthless. Who are you going to complain about the horrible bolt placement to? Ha ha ha.

Boissal wrote:There's no bonus on 8a.spray for doing a FA.

Not true. 10 point bonus for an FA, since its roughly 1% harder than repeating an existing route*

(*according to Jens, who knows everything).

Monty wrote: But at what point is it too long?

I will call my X girlfriend up for the answer and get back to you;

Monomaniac wrote: Not true. 10 point bonus for an FA, since its roughly 1% harder than repeating an existing route* (*according to Jens, who knows everything).

I stand corrected.

Killis Howard wrote:First, Yarp. If you don't give a shit, why are you reading and then commenting?

because she really does give a shit.

I agree with the majority here. After bolting and doing the FAs on literally hundreds of routes, one or two here and there don't matter all that much to me. I'm more interested in having a new fun route to do. Every now and then I'll get inspired by a particular line that challenges me and will red tag it, but those are few and far between. I find the whole "I got the FA because I sent the route 10 minutes, two weeks, or two months before someone else" to be rather juvenile, even with trad routes. For those to whom the FA is important then it's important to respect their wishes.