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Red Rocks - 04/30 - Helicopter Evacuation (Pine Creek Canyon: Challenger/Jet Stream Wall)

Original Post
Summer Time · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 190

We were descending on the Brass Wall yesterday, in Pine Creek Canyon, near Mescalito. Late in the afternoon, a helicopter circled around the valley; hovered over a large ramp half-way up a gigantic wall across the valley from us; and lowered a couple people out. Then the helicopter left and returned a little bit later; hovered again, and picked-up some people. The helicopter then went to the near-by parking lot where an ambulance w/ flashing lights was waiting. It was hard for me to tell what was going-on with the people so high-up on that big wall. Do you know what happened? I hope that everyone is OK.

Darren S · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 3,388

Yesterday, May 1st, it looked like there was an accident at the Magic Bus also. As we were coming into the loop road we were passed by several emergency vehicles. As we drove past the Magic Bus we could see people waving down the EMT's from the cliff. Any info on this one?

I've seen lots of emergency vehicles in Red Rock lately....Be careful out there.

J. Thompson · · denver, co · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,425

...sounds more like The Challenger wall area to me.
Any word?

josh

ClimbingRose · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 0

It was Magic Bus...

She was on a my Petzel shunt ascender.

Earlier I had tried the ascender as a rapel back up; I told the group I was with that it could also work as a self-belay. I asked the now injured person if she wanted to try it. She agreed.

I set up the rope, and while a few feet off the ground, I selfdemonstrated the selfbelay aspect, and locking mechanism when using the ascender.

She got set up, got on, and tried it herself a few feet off the ground. Feeling confident she did tested the lockingmechanism a couple more times.

While she went up, I stayed just below her by the ropes. She went up and was delighted on the item's capabilities. Then, at 20' she decided to "test the device again." I heard someone say, "should you have done that a little lower?"
She pressed the release button and she did not slide down, tryied a few more times, and before i could say anything, she slid down fast.
I was still sitting down under her, and tried to open up my body to catch her. She landed on me I don't remember where or what part of her landed on me.

I tried to say "let go of the release," but it happneded so fast I did not get a chance, and she finally let go just three feet off the ground.
but she still rickashaded on the wall, then she hit the floor and cracked her head. WITHOUT A HELMET!!!!! Blood all over the place! Just awful!
=(

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493
ClimbingRose wrote:It was Magic Bus... She was on a my Petzel shunt ascender. Earlier I had tried the ascender as a rapel back up; I told the group I was with that it could also work as a self-belay. I asked the now injured person if she wanted to try it. She agreed. I set up the rope, and while a few feet off the ground, I selfdemonstrated the selfbelay aspect, and locking mechanism when using the ascender. She got set up, got on, and tried it herself a few feet off the ground. Feeling confident she did tested the lockingmechanism a couple more times. While she went up, I stayed just below her by the ropes. She went up and was delighted on the item's capabilities. Then, at 20' she decided to "test the device again." I heard someone say, "should you have done that a little lower?" She pressed the release button and she did not slide down, tryied a few more times, and before i could say anything, she slid down fast. I was still sitting down under her, and tried to open up my body to catch her. She landed on me I don't remember where or what part of her landed on me. I tried to say "let go of the release," but it happneded so fast I did not get a chance, and she finally let go just three feet off the ground. but she still rickashaded on the wall, then she hit the floor and cracked her head. WITHOUT A HELMET!!!!! Blood all over the place! Just awful! =(
I don't know where to start. Are you Nigerian?

Have you really just taken most of the responsibility for this person's accident?
Darren S · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 3,388
ClimbingRose wrote: She pressed the release button and she did not slide down, tryied a few more times, and before i could say anything, she slid down fast.
Doesn't pressing the release mean the device won't stop a fall anymore?

Sorry your friend got hurt, self-belay systems are dangerous in the wrong hands.

Hope she gets well soon.
NickinCO · · colorado · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 155
ClimbingRose wrote:It was Magic Bus... She was on a my Petzel shunt ascender. Earlier I had tried the ascender as a rapel back up; I told the group I was with that it could also work as a self-belay. I asked the now injured person if she wanted to try it. She agreed. I set up the rope, and while a few feet off the ground, I selfdemonstrated the selfbelay aspect, and locking mechanism when using the ascender. She got set up, got on, and tried it herself a few feet off the ground. Feeling confident she did tested the lockingmechanism a couple more times. While she went up, I stayed just below her by the ropes. She went up and was delighted on the item's capabilities. Then, at 20' she decided to "test the device again." I heard someone say, "should you have done that a little lower?" She pressed the release button and she did not slide down, tryied a few more times, and before i could say anything, she slid down fast. I was still sitting down under her, and tried to open up my body to catch her. She landed on me I don't remember where or what part of her landed on me. I tried to say "let go of the release," but it happneded so fast I did not get a chance, and she finally let go just three feet off the ground. but she still rickashaded on the wall, then she hit the floor and cracked her head. WITHOUT A HELMET!!!!! Blood all over the place! Just awful! =(
This is exactly why in the other thread I said you should not use a shunt to top rope solo.

Top Rope soloing
ClimbingRose · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 0

@ Brian - Nigerian?!?!
Are you asking if I am black or of black decent? Why does that matter when a climber is injured?

Why would I take most of the responsibility? She was not pressured into utilizing this device. Ultimately, she is an adult and she knows rock climbing is dangerous.

@ Darren- Just the opposite on the shunt... Pressing the release will release the hold and send you down. Since I was below her I broke her fall, she only got bumped up, a gash on the head and she is now out of the hospital on pain pills.

Rose

Cathy Badell · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 95
ClimbingRose wrote:@ Brian - Nigerian?!?! Are you asking if I am black or of black decent? Why does that matter when a climber is injured?
Pretty sure Brian's 'Nigerian' comment stemmed from the misspellings in ClimbingRose's post, e.g., spam e-mail that originates from Nigeria often contains misspelled words or unusual phrasing since the author is not likely a native English speaker.

But Brian can respond as to his original intent.

Cathy
J. Thompson · · denver, co · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,425

Sounds like there were 2 rescues that day. Anyone know what happened in Pine Creek?

josh

J. Thompson · · denver, co · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,425

Sounds like there were 2 rescues that day. Anyone know what happened in Pine Creek?

josh

Doug Foust · · Oroville, WA · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 165

Rose,

Thanks for sharing the story but I think "she is an adult and knows climbing is dangerous" is a copout.

While there is some risk involved in climbing, this was obviously a case of someone not having a complete understanding of how a device works. I think when you offer someone instruction you do take on the responsiblity of knowing what you are talking about, and making sure the climber comprehends what you are teaching them. Though ultimately it is the responsibilty of the climber to make sure they completely understand how a device works and if they have any doubt to ask more questions or don't use it.

I'm not trying to place blame, just trying to emphasize, if you don't understand something completely, not just how a device works, but also its weaknesses and modes of failure, then don't use it.

Like Darren said...let's be careful out there.

D Young · · Las Vegas, Nevada · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 412
Darren in Vegas wrote: Doesn't pressing the release mean the device won't stop a fall anymore?
ClimbingRose wrote:@ Darren- Just the opposite on the shunt... Pressing the release will release the hold and send you down. Rose
I know Rose and I've been quiet for too long. The above exchange is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Rose not understanding what she is talking about and putting her foot in her mouth. The accident recently at Magic Bus was coming for some time either directly or indirectly from Rose's involvement. I've mentioned to several of our mutual climbing friends that she is dangerous and will get someone hurt or worse. I hoped it would never happen but now my fears have been realized. I can no longer sit silently by and watch her jeopardize others' safety. I was at Magic Bus today with a client. He noticed the blood first. I mentioned it seemed enough to have a story behind it and figured I would hear about it here on MP or other sites. Now that I know the story, there is more to the story. Rose is an Organizer for the Las Vegas Climbing, Bouldering and Canyoneering Meetup and in this capacity hosts climbing events. I caution everyone in Meetup to not attend her events as she is dangerous, uninformed, ill-informed, and completely capable of inadequately instructing attending climbers in everything from belay technique to self-belays using ascenders. If there is anything that comes from this unfortunate accident, it is that I can no longer sit quietly in the background praying nothing happens as a result of her ineptness. Hopefully no one else will be injured or worse as a result.

Rose, do yourself and everyone you climb with a favor and obtain adequate professional instruction on all things climbing before you "mentor" another climber in ANY aspect of climbing.

Doug you are right. Responsibility rests squarely on her shoulders.

Dan Young
NickinCO · · colorado · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 155

and the plot thickens....

I see a striking similarity in meetup group characteristics even though Chicago is about 1800 miles from Las Vegas.

Doug Foust · · Oroville, WA · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 165

Dan,

You're kinda putting words in my mouth. I've never climbed with Rose, so not commenting on her ablity in general.

I'm just pointing out, that if you are teaching someone, you are taking some responsibility, but the climber is also responsible for making sure they understand something before trying it out.

Thankfully no one was seriously hurt and hopefully lessons were learned.

Doug

D Young · · Las Vegas, Nevada · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 412

Doug you are right and I stand corrected. I agree with you when you state: "I think when you offer someone instruction you do take on the responsiblity of knowing what you are talking about, and making sure the climber comprehends what you are teaching them."

Dan

Kurt Arend · · Las Vegas, Nv · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 150

hehehe... Oh Dan we haven't met yet but we work for the same people and in fact work together soon... the boss isn't gonna like this yogi... this shit is classic...

Dude anyone that thinks that Rose is at fault is crazy imo. Hey I have been climbing for close to twenty years, but why on earth would you listen to me if you have a head on your shoulders? Sure I will offer advise, might even show you the way I do it... but to blindly follow someones advise without any prior knowledge of what is at hand is kinda dumb. Especially something so specialized as rope soloing. Was Rose wrong in her theory... maybe, but works for her. I do not know Rose, but to blast her as unsafe is a low blow. If she is, then she is. People need to recognize this and decide what is best for them. Now if she is out giving paid "instruction" or "guiding" that is a whole other ball of wax and that needs to stop. This is where the sales pitch goes... hire a guide!!! One from a company that not only has insurance, but is a permit holding partner in Red Rock!!!

Rose word of advise... only show people the ways of the solo if it is someone that you think can do it properly and make sure you let them know that what they are doing will prob kill them so best advise not to do it or read a book on it. Steer clear of teaching, and really sit back and analyze what happened. Could this have happened to you? Is there a flaw in your system? I had a soloing accident that almost cost me everything, it took a lot of digging deep and figuring out what happened so it will not happen again. I thought my system was bombproof and I sadly found out it wasn't... Take a break and go over every detail. Your life could depend on it!

And lastly I hope the girl is ok. In the end all the blaming and finger pointing means jack dick. A lady got hurt, and lets hope she is ok and learned a valuable lesson... don't every think that one person is right when it comes to climbing knowledge. Make sure YOU YOURSELF are safe before anyone else!

K back to beer drinking...

Kurtburt

Kristen Bridges · · Henderson · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 0

Dan... You say in your post "Rose is an Organizer for the Las Vegas Climbing, Bouldering and Canyoneering Meetup and in this capacity hosts climbing events. I caution everyone in Meetup to not attend her events as she is dangerous, uninformed, ill-informed, and completely capable of inadequately instructing"

Whatever happened at Magic Bus, it was NOT during a posted Meetup event. Please do not make this about Meetup. Yes, Rose is an ASSISTANT organizer for that group. That only means that she can invite other climbers to join her for whatever event she chooses. Meetup is not a TEACHING site. It is simply a place for folks with similar interests to "meet up" which was started by a cool climber dude named Josh who loved to climb and it was kept alive when he got too busy by a cool climber chick (me!) who also loves to climb. I do not know yet who was hurt at Magic Bus. I hope and pray that they are OK. I assume I will be hearing from Rose soon with the details since we are friends. (I am friends with Dan also.) Meetup has been good to you, Dan. What is the problem with there being a site that is clearly not a teaching site but simply a place to find someone to climb with? I do recall, however, that YOU used to host TEACHING events prior to you becoming a guide and we did let that slide. That is not the case with Rose. She is simply an enthusiastic climber. She does not claim to be a guide or a teacher on events she posts on Meetup. None of that matters though, since this was NOT a Meetup event. Thank You, Kurt, for your input in the matter. I look forward to climbing again soon with both Rose and Dan once my school schedule lets up. Thanks for listening.

BSwett · · Bend, Or. · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 15
ClimbingRose wrote:It was Magic Bus... She was on a my Petzel shunt ascender.
There it is, it was your Petzel shunt ascender.
If some kid wants to learn how to drive, you don't just hand him your car keys and let him hit the road. If someone wants to learn how to rappel with your ATC, you make damn sure to give him a firemans, check for proper set up, or simply say NO, and encourage them to get some professional instruction.

Plus you're in the magic bus area! Why complicate things with ascenders and more variables. All you need up there is like 6 quickdraws….

But anyway, I'm glad you softened her fall, and nobody died.
Careful out there, please.
ClimbingRose · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 0

NO... I an not Nigerian, but I was raised in another country, and yes, I mispell words.

Well, thank you everyone and especially Dan Young and Doug Foust for your input.

Joe Cayer · · Mesa, Az · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 360

First and foremost I'd just like to point out the obvious. Climbing is a dangerous sport, it say's so on every piece of equipment that we purchase. Everyone using any type of climbing equipment should have working knowledge of that equipment. One of the best ways to gain knowledge and experience is through formal training, most classes teach extreme redundencies and back-ups. A fellow climber has been injured and I will leave it at that, I'm not looking to place blame or point fingers. We're fortunate that the extent of the injuries were not fatal or more serious, through this incident awareness should be elavated throughout the community.

As far as the use of Meet-up groups, I would like to reiterate what Kristen has already said. Outdoor climbing Meet-ups are not for teaching and instruction, they are designed as a way to meet with like minded individuals who share the same passion. There are many areas available to find suitable climbing partners, Meet-up is just one of those outlets. I've met with plenty of people that I would and have trusted my well being to through meet-up and other partner finding forums. It just appeared to me that Meet-up recieved some bad publicity with this thread.

I've seen forums in the past on if it is proper to approach others if you believe them to be doing things unsafely. I'd have to say, if you felt so compelled, speak with that person. Maybe the transfer of experience and knowledge would benifit everyone involved.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Injuries and Accidents
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