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Recent law school grad & climber seeking advice

Original Post
Patrick O'Neil · · Santa Clara, CA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 150

The particulars: finished my JD in May, put off taking the Bar until Feb '15 due to some pretty serious burnout. I love climbing, and seek a life that would allow me to be a productive member of society while also allowing for traveling and climbing. I want a family, am alright not making six figures and definitely no desire for Big Law (it's probably quite clear from this description that I've never been on that particular path). My undergrad is a BA in Journalism and have ~5 years of various media experience prior to law school.

I've read some about the "JD Advantage," how it may or may not be a myth and a scam. I'm open-minded, maybe too much so because I have no idea what I want to do, what I should do and even more basically, where to start looking.

My question then is an open one to any attorney-climbers out there, what do you do?

Thoughtful advice is greatly appreciated in advance.
Thank you,
Patrick.

ton · · Salt Lake City · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 0

i did a summer of healthcare policy work. a journalism degree coupled with the JD can be very useful in policy work because so much of what gets done in trying to effect change is in public perception, education, presentation of the right things to the right people, etc. maybe environmental policy?

good luck!

Chris Clarke · · Davis, WV · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 130

Out of law school, I worked a few years for a big NY law firm which was plainly not sustainable for me. Then I went to work for a not-for-profit for a little less than 20 years which allowed for a good life with plenty of climbing and other hobbies plus having a family.

I'm semi-retired now working the equivalent of two days a week from Bolivia for my old job in the US. I'll probably keep doing that as long as they want me because it's nice to stay mentally engaged and connected to something larger than my own little world. I don't see going back to work full time unless something really interesting comes around. I'll turn 50 in October.

Jan Tarculas · · Riverside, Ca · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 917

take out more loans and buy as many lotto tickets as you can and pray to God you win! jk

I got no advice but lets get back on tahquitz! I just went back and got kicked off again because of Thunder and approaching rain. At least it wasn't thunder and hail like what we experienced

Kai Larson · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 436

Don't know what your situation is, but all the young, newly minted attorneys I know are having a hard time finding work.

My advice is take a couple of years to focus on your career. Get some experience doing something, with work at a law firm being high on the list.

After you have a bit of experience on your resume, then you will have a few more options and more flexibility in figuring out what you want to do for the rest of your life.

Austin Baird · · SLC, Utah · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 95

The problem with working at a firm while figuring out what you want to do is that businesses other than law firms don't value that experience much unless they're looking for an in-house counsel. If you're not set on being a lawyer, it's best to get experience somewhere other than a firm, as that experience will be more useful than a firm job everywhere else.

I do mortgage compliance and the flexibility, lack of hierarchy, and ability to work from home when necessary are huge selling points for me.

ss · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 10

To add to what has been said, if you don't want to practice law, I wouldn't work for a firm or take the bar exam.

But, if you do want to practice law, then my experience (and I'm fairly new, too) has been that for the first couple (few?) years, you put your head down and work. There's a learning curve to overcome since everything (well, not quite everything, but almost everything) you learned in law school is useless. I have friends who, after they've been practicing for a few years, were able to transition to the AG's office or to an in-house position. They all seem happy with their work and their 40 hour weeks (I work at a big law firm).

In terms of a "JD advantage," I think a JD could be helpful, as others have mentioned, in compliance or policy work. I know several people who graduated from law school, never took the bar, and worked for a state or federal agency administering a Medicaid program or responding to civil rights violations. And, they seem to have a good quality of life, too.

Anyway, best of luck to you as you figure it out!

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
Austin Baird wrote:The problem with working at a firm while figuring out what you want to do is that businesses other than law firms don't value that experience much unless they're looking for an in-house counsel. If you're not set on being a lawyer, it's best to get experience somewhere other than a firm, as that experience will be more useful than a firm job everywhere else.
I really disagree with this statement. From the perspective of both a law school grad and someone who worked part time in law school careers services offices (while establishing my own practice), firm experience--assuming you acquire some actual skills while you're there--is the most marketable experience.

Personally, I quit a large firm two years after graduating, wondering whether I wanted to be a lawyer, etc. When I got back, I learned two things. One, the legal market doesn't get why you would need to quit being a lawyer and go do other things and looks upon any absence with serious reservations; and, two, it was the firm experience that got me all the interviews. Having said that, the market is pretty lousy for attorneys, so now would not be a bad time to take a hiatus if one is in the works.

I would also advise against putting off the bar unless you're absolutely certain you'll never practice. Sure you're burned out. We get that. But it is going be REALLY ugly cracking open those books again after a two year break of you're not wanting to be an attorney phase. I would be impressed if it actually happened. It's just too easy to walk away at that point. I would put your head down, suck it up, get it done and never have to worry about that again. Again, from my perspective, the skills I would take into another field are ones I learned on the job, not so much at school. I don't see a lot of value to a JD who's never practiced.
David T.S. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 5

I'm an attorney, family man, and climber. I'm not sure that I've got the whole thing figured out, but I've got a situation that works well for me. My advice is to go to a state that has good climbing, small towns, and a not too saturated job market. This would rule out all of the hip places with big climbing scenes, like Boulder, Denver, Seattle, most of California, parts of Utah, etc. Try to get your foot in the door of the state legal community by starting off as a trial-level clerk or at a public defender's office. Start off volunteering if you can afford to, especially prior to sitting for the bar, if you can't find a paid gig off the bat. Then try to find some people in your chosen state's legal community that you like and respect. Then try to get them to hire you. That's pretty much what I did. The other option is to go solo, in which case you would have more flexibility as far as climbing, but you will inevitably be a crappy attorney because you will lack an experienced mentor(s). I have a job I enjoy with regular work hours (i.e. no weekends and evenings), a 3 minute commute, adequate outdoor climbing within 20-30 minutes, a good gym to go to, good-great outdoor climbing within 1-3 hours. With a wife and small child, I don't climb outdoors as much as I would like to (only 1-2 times/week, sessions a bit too short), but with gym sessions mixed in during the week, I am progressing and enjoying myself. The dream, of course, is that my baby grows up to like climbing, at which time climbing vs. family time will be in harmony.

BrianRH · · Jersey City, NJ · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 40

With free advice, you usually get what you pay for... But my two cents:

If you were considering law school, I'd have a different set of questions but, at this point, I agree with those who counsel taking the bar, and getting some experience sooner rather than later.
Don't delay it - it isn't going to get easier. You've already sunk time and money into the legal career. You'll have more options in a few years. Climb on the weekends. Lots of us have stepped off the attorney track to pursue other careers, but you want the couple of years of legal experience under your belt. I don't think a JD alone is much more valuable in the job market than having completed one year of law school...

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
D.Buffum wrote: This is entirely true. After two years in private practice, I took two years off to go into the Peace Corps with my wife. It was great life decision, but a terrible, terrible career choice.
It's a sad truth. I ended up traveling through Asia, trekking in Nepal, touring the U.S., doing stuff that I never would have the time or ability to do now. Ever. I had several conversations where I tried to explain (or, really, spin) to others why I did it, and it was like we spoke different languages and were from different planets. They were never going to understand my motivations for what I did. I would have loved to joined the Peace Corps but, after law school, it didn't really seem an option anymore just for those reasons.

Part of the reason that I went out on my own was because I didn't necessarily want to work with people to whom I would have to constantly justify my prior decisions (or work for clients/companies I didn't respect). Initially, I had the job flexibility to get out fairly often. Now, I am a victim of my own success and getting out is really tough, though it's probably more the result of having a younger family and living someplace not super close to climbing. Still, for all the grind of a legal career (and it can be a grind), I've found my niche, and have been successful enough where the family has a nice house in a nice part of LA, the kids don't have to go to the crappy public schools in our area, the wife can stay at home with the kids and we could afford a nice little cabin up near the Needles that we can enjoy fairly often. I guess that's a long winded way of saying that, for me, keeping my options open worked out well.
Kai Larson · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 436

The advantage of working at a law firm is that you learn to do things. The first few years of working at a law firm is basically paid training. Law school doesn't really teach you any usable skills. Working at a law firm can teach you how to do litigation, how to do contracts, how to do transactions. These are general skills that are transferable to other work, whether you're working for a firm, an in-house job, or working for yourself.

Here's my career path:

Graduated from law school. Worked for a big firm for 2 years. During that time, I learned how to do stuff.

Left the big firm, joined a biotech start up. Built the company, took it public, sold the business.

Reinvested some of the proceeds in another biotech venture. That one crashed and burned.

Worked for myself for a while.

Took a senior in-house position, where I still am today.

Other than the 2 year stint at the big firm, I've had a great balance of work and personal time for family and climbing and other hobbies. I like what I do, and I have had time to go to my kids' soccer games, go climbing, and generally have a fun life beyond work.

It was the initial investment in the law firm experience that led to me being able to do the other things. I could not have been able to do any of the non-law firm jobs without the training and mentoring I got in my time with the firm.

So, get some real experience first. Whether that's at a law firm, a government job, or something else, you need skills. Focus on obtaining skills first. Sacrifice your quality of life for a few years and get some marketable skills. After you have marketable skills, then you will have the luxury of worrying about climbing.

It may be that all of this advice is moot, however. Given the glut of young lawyers out there, it's possible you won't find a job at all, in which case, good luck.

Austin Baird wrote:The problem with working at a firm while figuring out what you want to do is that businesses other than law firms don't value that experience much unless they're looking for an in-house counsel. If you're not set on being a lawyer, it's best to get experience somewhere other than a firm, as that experience will be more useful than a firm job everywhere else. I do mortgage compliance and the flexibility, lack of hierarchy, and ability to work from home when necessary are huge selling points for me.
Dankasaurus · · Lyons, CO · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 85

Do whatever you want but please, please don't fuck me over later in life if you choose to become a Lawyer.

Charles Vernon · · Colorado megalopolis · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 2,655

I graduated May 2011 and have worked for a non-profit the last 2.5 years. My job primarily entails representing detained, severely mentally ill immigrants in deportation proceedings. I would hardly recommend it--long hours, lots of driving, detention facilities in the middle of nowhere Arizona desert, low pay, etc. I've learned a LOT about immigration law and litigation, though. In six months I'm eligible for a 2 month paid sabbatical which is a nice perk that non-profits will sometimes offer, but the job does not seem sustainable long term.

FWIW I put off the bar and it worked out fine, but I am blessed (?) with natural test-taking ability which far exceeds my actual intelligence.

FWIAW, I am considering taking a big chunk of time off, and feel pretty confident that if I wanted to stay in the field that I'm in (non-profit/public defender), that it wouldn't be a deal breaker.

AMT · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 0

I'm with Charles on the non-profit as a good route if you can start there. Make friends, do better than decent work, build a network, and you'll be able to take some time off and come back to the work...if you want to return to legal work. Litigation for a non-profit is also a decent jumping to non-ligitation work. I'd say that as long as you're working as a lawyer, you want to pick a town with great climbing nearby. I live in Flagstaff and climb outside really often, but probably wouldn't if I were in a different location

astrov · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 0

No one has mentioned the fact that student loans come due 6 months after graduation. (Or maybe it was 6 months after taking the Bar?) Are those a factor for you?

I say if you're burnt out now, don't will yourself take the Bar and go into a junior associate position. First, you might not be focused enough to study for the exam, so you might not pass. Second, work as a junior litigation associate (which is the most likely outcome for you) will be even more demanding than Bar study. You put yourself at risk for an ethics or malpractice claim unless your head is 100% in the game. Work as a litigation associate doesn't really translate into a marketable skill at a non-firm job. It makes you something of a liability, IMHO, since you might be tempted to return to it, and you're probably not receiving training specific to any other industry.

Rest up, get some inspiration, and then take the exam if you want to practice.

Even working as a litigation paralegal might not be a bad interim option. At the end of the day, as a paralegal, you'll have a decent salary, set hours, and no regulatory accountability (i.e. Bar license) for the quality and accuracy of the work your attorney is signing off on. Plus you can continue to evaluate whether practicing is right for you.

Edubs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0

Hey sorry to hear about your JD, Patrick, but we'll get through this. :P

I was wedded to NYC after I left school so I stayed here and work in policy. But if I wasn't married to NY and city life in general, I'd pick a city close to good climbing, and try to get involved in state government. Very generally speaking, the only place with decent wages and decent hours for a lawyer is the government. Nonprofits are cash-strapped and understaffed; and private companies are, well, private companies... (Though I live in NYC--maybe it's different elsewhere).

Anyway I actually love writing bills, so my dream job would probably be working for Legislative Services in the CO or CA state legislatures, but that's not gonna happen. States are very provincial, so you will have to be a full fledged member of the state before landing a gig there--volunteering is a good option if you can afford it. It's obviously easier if you went to a school in the state you plan to work in, but if not, the move and volunteer thing is a good strategy. I had a friend after school who moved to Hawaii and volunteered for a bit until he got a gig with the HI government.

Anyway good luck! Make sure you have a place in the van for your suits!

ss · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 10
Edubs wrote: Anyway I actually love writing bills, so my dream job would probably be working for Legislative Services in the CO or CA state legislatures, but that's not gonna happen. States are very provincial, so you will have to be a full fledged member of the state before landing a gig there.
Edubs, too bad you aren't licensed in CO... there's an opening for a staff attorney position with Legislative Services in CO right now.
Edubs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2014 · Points: 0
colosadie wrote: Edubs, too bad you aren't licensed in CO... there's an opening for a staff attorney position with Legislative Services in CO right now.
OMG you're breaking my heart! :)
Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

No reciprocity? My bar scores made me eligible to waive into CO's state bar. I started the process but the found I had to get my ethics requirements, etc., so I just didn't follow thru with it.

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
astrov wrote: work as a junior litigation associate (which is the most likely outcome for you) will be even more demanding than Bar study. You put yourself at risk for an ethics or malpractice claim unless your head is 100% in the game. Work as a litigation associate doesn't really translate into a marketable skill at a non-firm job. It makes you something of a liability, IMHO, since you might be tempted to return to it, and you're probably not receiving training specific to any other industry.
I meant to respond to these points a moment ago but lengthy responses by iphone are just too much work. A couple of points. One, junior associate work is demanding but the incidence of malpractice claims are low since all your work is (or should be heavily supervised by another who will likely bear the responsibility for any claims). Plus, the firm's carrier provides a sufficient defense, with the firm paying the deductible. An ethics claim should NOT happen, regardless of experience, unless you're just doing something you know you really shouldn't be doing. Two, it is the general breath of experience--research, analysis, drafting, advocacy and courtroom experience if you are a litigation associate--that gives you a broad base experience that permits you to move in a variety of directions. Having a specific practice area is only good if you transfer to another job with that specific focus. You are right, however, in that once you're there, there's a tendency to stay put. Still, I and at least a couple of others on this thread started out a large firms and moved on. Maybe it's the climber's brain that makes such places incompatible over the long term.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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