RECCO Tabs Making Their Way

Something I have wanted to see for a while. RECCO tabs in mountaineering and climbing clothing; as opposed to just the high-dollar ski outfits.

nationaloutdoors.net/gearre…

(don't work for REI -- that was just one example, forwarded from Dale)

Along with the advent of the Avalung, some committing routes that are not necessarily inherent in a foregone conclusion of a trauma mechanism, the incorporation of the non-intrusive RECCO tab will help save lives, I feel. This will be achieved by offering time to the climber & a more rapid locate by responders, what is loosely called the second trauma window (common in the back-country -- the period of time after the golden hour) to stabilize someone can be better served.

Also, keep your eyes out for a Today show. There will be discussion on rescue technology & cost impacts. Don't have the details as of yet.

Very interesting. I thought the Recco tabs only worked if someone has a Recco transmitter, which is different than an avy beacon. Is that true?

And, do we have a potential technology standards issue here? I really hope Recco isn't trying to compete with the current beacon technology. All we need is people not being located b/c the party has a combination of tech that is not interoperable.

Maybe my understanding is incorrect and none of that is a concern????

Crag Dweller wrote: none of that is a concern????

Yes, none of that is a concern. In fact, the responders are starting to incorporate a device that picks up both beacon transmit and RECCO reflection. Keep in mind this is not about the buddy rescue situation; this is something that will serve when partners become separated by terrain and the responders by heli or hasty ground team will have better position to do a locate and also to start working on stabilization.

Granted, most of what we do in a technical setting sets up for the probability of traumatic injury if an avy occurs while we are committed on a route. But not everything in the mountains is technical -- so I put this topic here.

Buff Johnson wrote: "...starting to incorporate a device...

that's what concerns me. will my 2-year old Pieps beacon pick up a new Recco reflector? will a 2-year old Recco device pick up by Pieps?

Edit to add: I understand the benefit of Recco when at a resort or in the sidecountry near a resort. But, if Recco starts selling devices to individuals and we have a mix of devices in the backcountry that don't communicate with one another, it could be problematic.

^^^ your beacon will only pick up another beacon which is actively transmitting. Recco is a passive reflector, your beacon will not work with it.

RECCO = body recovery, unless you are inbounds at a ski area equipped with the system.

Promoting it for climbing and mountaineering sounds like marketing b.s.

From what I've seen the RECCO devices are only in the hands of SAR outfits and ski patrol. Your best bet in the case of an avalanche still is, and I feel probably always will be, a partner with an avy beacon and the skills (read, practice) to use it quickly. Because the RECCO devices will be in the hands of external parties (SAR, ski patrol), the response time will be slower. And if you're buried for more than 15 minutes you're most likely hosed anyway.

This is not to say that I think RECCO patches are useless for everybody - with the slew of inbounds avalanches last year, I think they make a lot of sense for resort skiers on steeper terrain. Not better than avy gear and a partner, but better than nothing.

For backcountry skiers & mountainteers, however, I do think RECCO is pretty useless. In the case of a rescue the SPOT device seems to make more sense for pinpointing a location and accelerating the rescue process.

Keep in mind that I'm not a rescue professional, just a backcountry skier with opinions. I'm just not sold on the RECCO idea outside of resort boundaries.

Buff Johnson wrote: nationaloutdoors.net/gearre… (don't work for REI -- that was just one example, forwarded from Dale) Along with the advent of the Avalung, some committing routes that are not necessarily inherent in a foregone conclusion of a trauma mechanism, the incorporation of the non-intrusive RECCO tab will help save lives, I feel. This will be achieved by offering time to the climber & a more rapid locate by responders, what is loosely called the second trauma window (common in the back-country -- the period of time after the golden hour) to stabilize someone can be better served.

Are you saying you should wear an avalung while climbing routes exposed to avalanche? Without it how do you get some extended window with RECCO? The above scenario is hard to follow, could you elaborate?

If your partner can't get dig you out fast, it probably won't matter by the time any other responders arrive.

^^^ agree with W.S.' comments.

Crag Dweller wrote: that's what concerns me. will my 2-year old Pieps beacon pick up a new Recco reflector? will a 2-year old Recco device pick up by Pieps?

No. Recco detectors and avy transceivers operate on very different frequencies. A Recco unit transmits a signal which is then reflected by the diode unit sewn into a jacket or other piece of clothing (usually) while an avy beacon recieves a signal from another transmitting beacon. It looks like the new Recco detectors can pick up both the reflected recco signal and the avy transceiver's 457 khz, which is great. The recco detectors are expensive and I don't think they are commercially available but the reflector diodes are cheap ($20) and that's what is sewn into clothing.

Most major ski areas and a couple of SAR groups in Colorado have the detectors but who knows how long it will take them to get to a burried victim. If you're close to a ski area maybe they (ski patrol)can get there quickly but in a mountaineering scenario help is most likely hours away and may quite possibly be a body recovery by that point.

Recco units are designed to work in conjunction with traditional avy tools and are not meant as a substitute. Hopefully some day the detectors will get small enough and cheap enough to be carried by all backcountry users who want them.

Check out the Recco site for more info:

recco.com/startsida/index.asp

I think what Buff is talking about is adding another tool to our avalanche safety quiver. I have heard many arguments against avalungs in the same vein as above. In an avalanche, a victim is as likely if not more so to die of trauma than asphyxiation. Also, if caught in an avalanche will you be able to get the avalung in your mouth (technically you are supposed to ski/climb with the mouth piece in. I certainly don't)? With an avalung you may be more inclined to take risks in avalanche terrain (subconsciously of course). So why carry an avalung? Because it increases your chance of survival a little bit. Recco has a chance to do that in some situations. Hopefully more if rescue response times continue to decrease. Again, it is a tool that has some chance of increasing your chances of survival, not a panacea.

What I would like to see is the big name companies giving their permission to let Recco just sell the chips instead of including them in exorbitantly priced equipment (which will never happen). They are just a simple RFID that operates on a specific frequency and cost a couple dollars. Feel free to criticize!
Edit: I looked up stats on deaths from trauma and asphyxiation. 1/4 of deaths are from trauma, 3/4 from asphyxiation according to a study in the Canadian Medical Association Journal, so please disregard the statement made above. Also, Buff, please let me know if you feel I'm putting words in you mouth.

To add a few cases in point; we've already had separation by mountain terrain between parties and the responders made the locate & evac because the responders ended up being in better position, though they started miles away when a page went off. So, I bring this up as every instance isn't a forgone conclusion (though I did say, once we're committed on a route, that is pretty much risk acceptance). The introduction of tagging can aid in the locate.

The heli response & hasty ground responders are not entirely to be discounted. In Colorado, FFL can make a locate, if they can fly, within minutes from the call in the front range area. They can also help transport in medical personnel, if it's safely doable. Maybe the Golden Hour isn't achievable; I already said that -- the supposed GH more like the first 15 minutes anyway. Back-country SAR works in the time period of the second trauma window, which is the risk that has been accepted.

As stated already, there is no conflict of this idea and a beacon. It's a responder tool, -- but there is a problem with tagging everything, like skis & packs which is why you won't get tags or the transmit/receiver device as retail items; but I hope there will be more tagging seen from clothing manufacturers on articles that typically stay on you when you are in the mountains. These tags are completely non-intrusive.

Jonas D'Andrea wrote: RECCO = body recovery, unless you are inbounds at a ski area equipped with the system. Promoting it for climbing and mountaineering sounds like marketing b.s.

Why is this not just a gimmick. The solution here is party separation -- you are on a ridge, one takes a ride & goes down. How is buddy rescue going to do any good when you are thousand +/- vertical feet separated? A spot/plb or a cell call, that's about it.

"Yeah, well they just went down a thousand feet" -- it's not always a forgone conclusion that it's an automatic recovery; though yes, technical climbing & trauma are more than likely going to be inherent with one and another. Not every situation in mountain travel is technical route climbing; that is just one of our vocations. I added the Avalung as a tool that will help extend your time to hypoxia from 10-15 minutes to 1-2 hours; that's a possible window for SAR.

The simple fact of the matter is that climbers do call for aid when they need it.

I understand the RECCO concept is a little confusing, maybe because it takes the philosophy of buddy rescue out of your hands a little bit and puts in into reliance on EMS personnel. Climbers, for the most part, are usually well-tooled & educated in buddy evac on terrain problems. It's when you get separated, buried/concealed, & possible injury plays a part. The tag will just help in a very non-intrusive manner to get responders to where the climber is.

For me, if I just saw my partner (& friend to say the least) take a ride down a mountain right in front of me; I'd be calling it in like a madman to get help.

"The tag will just help in a very non-intrusive manner to get responders to where the climber is."

How?

What is the range for RECCO?

Anyone know?

All the RECCO info is on their site:

recco.com/startsida/index.asp

I thought we had already posted this

The info is on the "detector information" page. 200m through air, 30m through snow.

Didn't see a range listed on their site. You could just post it if you know.

summitdaily.com/article/200…

This article gives 200 meters as the range through the air. That is a lot more than I thought it was. you argument make sense in this context.

Still seems like more of a tool for body recovery if used outside a ski area.

Edit to add: Thanks Kellen.

Series of FAQ's on there website explains range, use, effectiveness:
recco.com/system/faq_detect…
recco.com/system/faq_reflec…

They will never replace an avalanche beacon and are not intended to; as Buff was saying the best use (outside a ski resort) is to help located people that are still alive but may be separated.

In avalanche burials they will only be useful in an in-resort burial. Therefore it is a simple way to have additional safety built into the system, but not safety you can fully rely on.

I am surprised that these simple reflectors are not in the majority of outdoor gear and hope they continue to be adopted. Do to their low cost I would assume that any SAR would be grateful if any missing person has some sort of RECCO reflector for any rescue type. Way more practical then hoping everyone will have one of those Personal Locator Beacons and would help locate thousands of lost hikers, pin-point people in dense forest, etc in a manner that is more efficient then ground SAR.

I appreciate the responses. I actually know how RECCO works. My questions were intended (although not well executed) to be rhetorical.

I was commenting on the potential that RECCO may try to enter the market as a device to aid in Search and (very importantly) Rescue. We shouldn't have two protocols competing for that market.

As far as the use of them for recovery, that would be beneficial for people who aren't wearing beacons. But, people who aren't wearing beacons in avy terrain... Well...

In case anyone wants to buy the diode reflectors here you go (same thing sewn into pricy jackets). Just make sure it's in a place that's not going to get ripped off of you in a slide;)

mountaingear.com/pages/prod…

Crag Dweller wrote: I was commenting on the potential that RECCO may try to enter the market as a device to aid in Search and (very importantly) Rescue. We shouldn't have two protocols competing for that market.

It isn't a problem.

Buff Johnson wrote: It isn't a problem.

This thread is a blast. Seems some are commenting without reading the thread or links.

To clarify.
RECCO = Passive = no batteries = no transmitter = signal reflecter = can be picked up by a helicopter or others far away which blast a powerful signal which gets reflected back = EMS.

Beacon = Active = batteries = transmitter = must be in close proximity to locate = Your buddies, they set their Beacon's to receive your signal.

These technologies are very different and do not compete in any way.

Hope I helped clear this up Buff.

Rick Blair wrote: This thread is a blast. Seems some are commenting without reading the thread or links. To clarify. RECCO = Passive = no batteries = no transmitter = signal reflecter = can be picked up by a helicopter or others far away which blast a powerful signal which gets reflected back = EMS. Beacon = Active = batteries = transmitter = must be in close proximity to locate = Your buddies, they set their Beacon's to receive your signal. These technologies are very different and do not compete in any way. Hope I helped clear this up Buff.

Uh, yeah, it seems some are commenting w/o reading. Your post is a good example.

Yes, as it stands, RECCO receivers are sold only to organizations. If, however, RECCO started selling them to individual consumers, they would be doing so in an effort to compete w/beacons. Considering RECCO tabs are becoming more ubiquitous, I have a hard time believing the people who run the company haven't at least looked at the option.