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Rawl replacement photo guide
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By mschlocker
From San Diego, CA
Jun 30, 2007
Me climbing in La Jolla.
Reading up on the ASCA site convinced me that Powers 5 piece stainless bolts were the way to go due to replacability, not to mention they are the strongest thing out there. I decided to put their suggestions to the test. What I found is that they are indeed replacable, but it can be a bit of work. One took me less than half an hour of fiddling with it. The next took me 1.5 hours due to a very stuck sleeve.

Below is the process documented by photos. Some more trickery was involved with the more difficult of 2 bolts. I came up with the needle nose vise grip funkness device and the pry out method (very good, used needle nose pliers) as described in the photos below during this process.

All other styles of bolt I have removed cleanly were done so with a crow bar. I have removed button heads and wedge bolts in this manner. I would say that behind a button head Rawl/Powers Power Bolts have the highest possibility of clean removal. Sometimes things go wrong. That's when a drill comes in handy.

I hope this is interesting to people. Read up on the ASCA web site for more detailed info.

Rawl / Powers replacement photo guide.  Mickey Fin...
Rawl / Powers replacement photo guide. Mickey Finn - Mission Gorge. Both lead bolts replaced 6/2007.

Galvanic action did not seem to be a problem between carbon steel bolt and stainless hanger. In fact where they met is the only place the bolt was still a little shiny (shielded from water at interface). Good news since this seems to be common practice in a lot of areas such as Tahquitz.

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By Adam Stackhouse
Administrator
Jun 30, 2007
Courtright Reservoir, September 2013
Nice illustration

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By mschlocker
From San Diego, CA
Aug 9, 2007
Me climbing in La Jolla.
Thanks for the compliment. While doing another experient with a new 3/8" Stainless 5 piece bolt. I tried some more aggressive removal ideas since I had already intentionally broken it. With a plug in roto hammer, I tried to drill through the sleeve with a 3/8" sds bit and then a 1/2" sds bit. I had little luck because the sleeve was not subflush when I started. The sleeve pushed the drill offset from the hole.

The drill did go through the sleeve, but very slowly. I stopped due to the unacceptable offset and I could imagine the slow going was destroying my bits. I also tried with a 3/8" metal drill bit in a regular power drill. The rock ground up the bit. The stainless sleeves are actually pretty hard so I made no progress with a now dull bit.

I have heard that others have successfully drilled through 3/8" sleeves with a powerful rotohammer and a 1/2" bit.

I also reaffirmed my belief in my 6" vise grip funkness sleeve remover. Even the new sleeve was hard to pull by hand. This helped a lot. Below is a picture of my invention in use.

Vise grip funkness for Power Bolt sleeve removal. ...
Vise grip funkness for Power Bolt sleeve removal.

Somebody in the forum mentioned threading the sleeve with a 3/8" tap and pulling it with a 3/8" bolt. If it works I think I was one upped with that idea.

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By Rick Shull
Administrator
From Arcata, CA & Dyer,NV
Aug 9, 2007
Grip strength training, Nevada style.
Great idea, Mark. I look forward to trying it out on some of the replacements of our coastal mank.

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By Jaaron Mankins
From Bayfield, CO
Aug 10, 2007
San Juans.
Awesome idea! I have had to drill out sleeve/cone before to remove innerds of old bolt with metal drill bits. Above illustration/funkness device is brilliant. Drilling out the cone sucks. Now off to fix some not so well thought out bolts!

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By mschlocker
From San Diego, CA
Aug 10, 2007
Me climbing in La Jolla.
Also try out the leverage idea drawn in on the replacement photo guide. I invented this when I had a sleeve subflush in a hole that would not come by grabbing it with the tips of needle nose pliers. I used the vise grip pliers (model 6LN I believe) to pry the sleeve out as in the photo with great success. They are more durable than standard needle nose pliers but a little too fat if the sleeve is buried. I just used the rigid side of the pliers as a mini prybar.

When funking do more lighter ones so you don't tear the sleeve.

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By mikewhite
Aug 10, 2007
  Third bolt on last pitch of cheetah
New method
Works Great.
Use a 3/8 tap to cut threads into the sleeve. Screw a 3/8 bolt into the new threads with a hanger on it and lightly funk it out.
Works great with sleeves that are welded in there.
If the sleve is loose then you can pull it out with the tap.

First unset the cone with original bolt
Unscrew bolt and remove
Thread first sleve and remove with 3/8 bolt and a light funk
Thread second sleeve and remove
Screw old bolt into old cone and funk it out.
No drilling through shit and fucking up your bit.
Redrill hole for larger bolt and insert asca hardware. (ASCA hardware is key for this process!!!)
Dont break the damn tap!!!
Learn how to use a tap before you try this.

When I drill and tap 3/8 bolts in steel at work, You drill a 5/16 hole and screw the tap in, Careful to give a back turn to cut off the metal that was removed from the new thread.
What is the I.D. of a 3/8 rawl sleeve?? It's 5/16.

Works Every time.
Saves battery power.
Will try to post pictures soon.
mike
asca

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By mschlocker
From San Diego, CA
Aug 12, 2007
Me climbing in La Jolla.
Genius Mike. Thanks for sharing your technique.

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By mschlocker
From San Diego, CA
Sep 27, 2007
Me climbing in La Jolla.
The first revision of the replacement guide is up. I just replaced the original photo (above). I have tested and added the vise-grip funkness, and even more helpful was Mike's idea of tapping the sleeve. I tried it twice, and that was definitely a sweet idea. Works well and fast. Used a 3/8-16 tap (same size as bolt in 1/2" powers bolts). Only need to cut in a few threads, maybe 1/4" in. Once you funk the sleeve out a little you can switch to pliers or better yet the vise grip funkness tool.

These methods make replacing Powers bolts relatively painless. If you are looking for some FA hardware, strongly consider these. They can be had for a good price on mcmaster.com or fastenmsc.com. Stainless are avilable for a reaonable price from this source and in low or high quantities.

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By Sam Lightner, Jr.
From Lander, WY
Sep 27, 2007
The Shield
Thats an impressive bunch of work.

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By mikewhite
Oct 1, 2007
  Third bolt on last pitch of cheetah
I got more tricks up my sleeve.
How do you remove 1/4" wedge bolts or 1/4" bolts that have sheared off?
Broken clean off and flush with the face.

I have done it in redrocks more than once.

?????

mike
asca

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By mikewhite
Oct 1, 2007
  Third bolt on last pitch of cheetah
If any of the above methods dont work. Use a 3/8 carbide metal bit to drill through the sleeve and then funk out the cone. You can get a three jaw chuck that will go into a sds hammer drill. Made by bosch.
Or take an 18 volt drill. One or two bits to drill one rawl sleeve,the rock beats the shit out of them.

Dont use sds,rock bits to drill the sleeve.

If you have to take 30 pounds of shit to do it right then take 50.

Less talk more work!!

mike
asca

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By mschlocker
From San Diego, CA
Oct 3, 2007
Me climbing in La Jolla.
mikewhite wrote:
How do you remove 1/4" wedge bolts or 1/4" bolts that have sheared off?


I read on the ASCA site once to drill a 1/4" hole touching the old bolt (beside it) and then you can remove the metal with needle nose pliers. Once you are done drill a 1/2" hole for a fat bolt. Never tried it though.

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By mikewhite
Oct 3, 2007
  Third bolt on last pitch of cheetah
Nope cant get a clean hole like that. Tried it and the hole gets jacked up.

Core drill them with petzel self drilling bolts that they use in caves.

They suck ass as bolts but work great for removing 1\4" wedge bolts or broken 1\4 inchers.
The O.D. is 12mm and the I.D. is a 1\4 inch.
Drill around the outside of the bolt and remove with needle nose pliers. Redrill with a 1/2" (13mm) bit and insert asca stainless bolts. They get dull quick, you might have to use 3-5 self drilling bolts to get it done.

mike
asca

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By mschlocker
From San Diego, CA
Nov 18, 2007
Me climbing in La Jolla.
Had a new experience with a sleeve bolt today. The sleeve was a stuck bugger, so I drilled through it with a 3/8" masonry drill on a 24V rotohammer. The key was having the sleeve subflush so the drill does not go in offset of the hole. The bit did not like the cone, so I just punched that to the back of the hole with a hammer and old drill bit. I had enough depth for a nice replacement but if the hole were more shallow I would have stuck in a short wedge bolt. My drill bit saw some wear but it is not completely ruined. Maybe do this with a bit you are about to toss anyway.

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By Stymingersfink
Apr 29, 2008
Redtail Hawk, circling nest 40' up the tower at An...
For any of you out there interested in doing bolt replacement, I would highly recommend you PM mike from up-thread before starting, he'll get you pointed in the proper direction for sure.

If he could climb as hard as he is good at anchor-replacement trickery, Sharma'd be out of a job. ;)


... and I KNOW mike enjoys sharing his techniques, especially if done so over a beer or three :P

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By mschlocker
From San Diego, CA
Jun 5, 2008
Me climbing in La Jolla.
I finally got around to buying myself a rebar eater bit. This thing is a carbide tipped SDS bit made for drilling through rebar you may hit while hammer drilling. It operates in rotary only mode.

The verdict is thumbs down unfortunately. You can drill a Rawl sleeve out with a standard hammer drill bit in hammer mode much faster. The bit smokes a bit when going through the cone though. Through the cone the rebar eater seemed to have a slight advantage.

You're looking at two+ minutes of hammering for a 3/8" X 2.25" Rawl sleeve/cone. Save a beater bit for this and also have a broken one handy to try and pound the cone back in so you don't have to finish it off to fit the new bolt in. Also keep a magnet and coat hanger to remove slivers of sleeve that will break off in the hole.

I have some pics of this operation posted. Power driling is a last resort. Check out my replacement guide, created including ideas from Mike White. All of them tested.
Rawl_Drilling

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By mschlocker
From San Diego, CA
Jun 5, 2008
Me climbing in La Jolla.
I doubt any power drilling would be effective on the thicker 1/2" sleeves from my experiences with 3/8". Has anybody tried removing a 1/2" Power Bolt yet? I know the sleeves on the 3/8" can be quite stuck.

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By mikewhite
Oct 25, 2008
  Third bolt on last pitch of cheetah
I found that a hammerdrill bit is not the best way to drill out the sleeve and you dont need to drill through the cone.

Use a regular drill bit that you would use to drill steel.

Then funk out the cone with the old bolt.

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