Rant: toproping bolted rappel routes

So, after climbing "Wrist" in the gunks this morning, my partner and I head off right to find the bolted rappel route at the top of "Calisthenic". After threading the rope, I look down over the edge, and to my surprise (this being mid-week) there's a large party at the base of the rap route, and with several top-ropes set up. I yelled down, asking if it would be ok if we rapped, and thought I got a negative response, so we packed up and walked off down the uberfall. We'd left a few things at the base of the climb, so I headed back and retrieved the gear.

When I approached the party of eight or so, I asked them if they realized that they were TR-ing a standard rap route ( using the lowest rap anchor, too, i think) Their response was basically, "its all good, you coulda rapped, just don't drop the rope on our heads". I commented that communication is hard from the top of the cliff to the bottom, but they clearly didn't understand the problem with that. I didn't bother to mention the potential rockfall issues as ropes are dropped, lowered, get stuck on ledges, etc.

Maybe it seems like a minor thing. I certainly do my share of top-roping, but at the gunks, with so much cliff open mid week, there's no need to tie up a bolted rap route for that.

- Bill

I don't think it's a problem for them to TR it, but certainly they should accommodate your rapping. I'm not sure I would even ask permission to rapp if they weren't leading. Would just yell rope and maybe thread it through slowly so not to hit them. Is that out of line?

I also think there is another rap area very nearby to the right at Ribs for future reference.

Yeah, next time I'll just rap (carefully), if it's a TR at the base. I'm not familiar with all the rap routes, and even with the book, its hard to find them from the top. It took me a while to find the Madame G's rap route last week -- didn't expect it to start at a completely detached, smallish boulder :)

This is a common problem at the Gunks and not just on rap routes. People lead the first pitch and set up a top-rope and then the entire party of gym climbers runs laps on it all day. An example of this is "Son of Easy O." Someone put a convenience anchor up there with three pitons and chains and now it is perpetually top-roped.

Let's start a movement to ban top-roping at the Gunks!! We'll get the Preserve to hire a team of big burly guys to patrol the cliffs with knives. Any rope that has been hanging on a route more than 10 minutes gets cut. ;-)

I think this quote applies "I love climbing, it's climbers I can't stand".

I'll concede the point on TR-ing a standard rap route.

However devil's advocate would say that at least they were doing it mid week to minimize the chances they might impact someone. Although that didn't seem to work out....

Logan Schiff wrote:I don't think it's a problem for them to TR it, but certainly they should accommodate your rapping. I'm not sure I would even ask permission to rapp if they weren't leading. Would just yell rope and maybe thread it through slowly so not to hit them. Is that out of line? I also think there is another rap area very nearby to the right at Ribs for future reference.

Or just rap with the rope, letting it feed through the device as you go.

I've always wondered why more people dont do that in situations where it's crowded or has a high probability of getting snagged. Not to jack the thread, but aside from the 45 seconds it takes to wrap up the rope and hang it on a draw or something, why wouldnt that be an option?

rhotodendron,,but in reverse. Prep to climb on first pitch, and a rap party above was attempting to come down so we waited, and waited,,and it took them almost 45 min. to set and rap that last pitch down to ground. Idiots. And inconsiderate.

Brian wrote:Someone put a convenience anchor up there with three pitons and chains and now it is perpetually top-roped.

Yeah, we had an argument about this at the time. There were old pitons there, and they were replaced with new ones that made the anchor solid for top-roping. Some of us argued that the pitons should be removed and not replaced.

Of course we mentioned that continual top-roping would mar access to a classic, but the convenience of a rap anchor was judged to be more important.

The Preserve's installation of bolts has had a similar collection of unintended side-effects, all of which they were warned about initially. A bit late in the day, they realized that rap routes should not direct rappel traffic down climbs, at least not down relatively popular routes. Unfortunately but understandably, all their mistakes remain.

Meanwhile, it is hard to argue that the bolts have had a significant effect in decreasing rappel tat, which is as prevalent as ever, if not more so. The hope had been that there were enough bolted rappel lines on the cliff for climbers to use those and not continually add more, but that does not seem to be the case.

In terms of appropriate behavior, it seems to me that people should refrain from rappelling on climbers who are leading the climb, but top-ropers ought to get out of the way of rappellers. If there is no intervening rubble, lowering the rappel ropes rather than throwing them is polite. It is even politer, but somewhat beyond the call of duty, to take the ropes down with you.

rgold wrote: In terms of appropriate behavior, it seems to me that people should refrain from rappelling on climbers who are leading the climb, but top-ropers ought to get out of the way of rappellers. If there is no intervening rubble, lowering the rappel ropes rather than throwing them is polite.

YES

I spent my early trad climbing career time at Seneca, not the Gunks. so my ethics may not be applicable to this situation.

In my day at Seneca, it'd be fair game to yell rope and rap (carefully) if there isn't a group leading below you. I must admit, it was extremely rare to find people setting TRs at Seneca outside established TR areas, especially on rap routes.

That said -- and not to be contradictory -- I think you did the right thing by walking off. That's always safer, especially when there's a group of noobs below. In other words, you did well to yield your right to rap, though you'd have been justified exercising it.

I'm not familiar with the anchors you're talking about: are the raps not a full rope length at the Gunks?

EDIT: Just saw the bit about a convenience anchor. Bummer.

rgold wrote: Meanwhile, it is hard to argue that the bolts have had a significant effect in decreasing rappel tat, which is as prevalent as ever, if not more so. The hope had been that there were enough bolted rappel lines on the cliff for climbers to use those and not continually add more, but that does not seem to be the case.

Placement issues aside, having the rap routes is great, but finding them from the top is difficult for me (and others, I presume). I walked back to the Uberfall in this case even though I knew I was passing at least one other bolted rap route -- I just didn't know the location, so walking down was the fastest option. Perhaps yellow blazes on the climbers trail at the top marking general location of the rap routes would help?

Peter Jackson wrote: I'm not familiar with the anchors you're talking about: are the raps not a full rope length at the Gunks?

With doubles, you can often, but not always, get down in one rap, but with a single 60m, its usually two or three to get to be bottom.

adding all those rap stations completly changed the dynamic of climbing @ the gunks. (not for the better) being a private reserve they could have rules if they wanted. No top ropeing of 1st pitches of multi pitch routes would be a great rule INMOP

Nick Goldsmith wrote:adding all those rap stations completly changed the dynamic of climbing @ the gunks. (not for the better) being a private reserve they could have rules if they wanted. No top ropeing of 1st pitches of multi pitch routes would be a great rule INMOP

Why dont those people (TR the 1st pitch of a multipitch climb) go to peters kill? The trapps is awesome, but I would argue not the place to be TR'ing the first pitch of a multipitch trad climb.

In my experience at the Gunks, one never uses the lowest chains to set up an anchor. Lowest links are used for rapping.

I have been in places where there were 3 parties at one anchor: one going up and right, one going up and left, and one coming down. With good rope management and common courtesy, it's not a problem.

My guess is that the party below was probably doing it right, you just couldn't tell from your perspective. Oh well. Rap down and find out. MOST people at the Gunks are friendly.

The Gunks are crowded, so this is to be expected. You can prepare for it too so it's a non-issue.

Bill Moser wrote: With doubles, you can often, but not always, get down in one rap, but with a single 60m, its usually two or three to get to be bottom.

Ah, that explains it. If I were king, I'd prefer rap anchors that are 50m from the dirt and no closer. But then again, I also prefer double ropes, so I'd never be unprepared to rap. Seems like a rap anchor placed 25-30m from the ground is just begging to be TRed upon.

I think I would rather them top rope from the bolts rather than building sketchy anchors and kill themselves. A small inconvenience but at least everyone's alive...

rgold wrote: Meanwhile, it is hard to argue that the bolts have had a significant effect in decreasing rappel tat, which is as prevalent as ever, if not more so. The hope had been that there were enough bolted rappel lines on the cliff for climbers to use those and not continually add more, but that does not seem to be the case.

I would think the dynamic of the community has also changed quite a bit since that time as well. If there's more tat then ever up there these days I would think it's due to a lack of education by the preserve and a growing laziness within the community. While the tat may or may not have gone down I'm sure there's ecological benefits to having the anchors from the reduced impact on trees and other vegetation.

As for the topic at hand... lower rope slowly and rap away. They're on the rap route, you're not on their TR route.

doligo wrote:I think I would rather them top rope from the bolts rather than building sketchy anchors and kill themselves. A small inconvenience but at least everyone's alive...

Dolgio,

That is exactly the problem. They don't know how to build anchors. Most of them are gangs of gym climbers who come outside to top-rope tying up classic trad lines like Son of Easy O, Snooky's Return, Ant's Line, etc. I have no problem with dedicated top-rope areas (Peterskill), sport climbing areas (Rumney) but the Gunks is a trad climbing area and it is being turned into a climbing gym. I'd be in favor of eliminating all of the bolted anchors at the Gunks. And I'm hardly anti-bolt.

all it would take is a handout at the parking lot and a few signs. tags on the anchors would work. education is easy at that place.

I enjoy the walk-off at the Gunks. Allows me to decompress and get ready mentally for the next lead. I don't enjoy getting rap routes tossed on me (rare) -- nor the new top-roping problem. Six-person party on the first pitch of Minty for 2 hours on a Saturday? Really? As rgold has indicated, these have been the unintended (though not unanticipated) consequences.

I would suggest that the increase in the fee perhaps has played a role. These days, it seems like everyone is rushing about trying to get their money's worth in terms of pitches.