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Quiet hrs in the High Peaks?!
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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 23, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on

Kevin Heckeler wrote:
Your judgment is impaired if that is/was your thinking. Carry the shoes. Your thought process supports why the snow shoe regulation exists. In this case, to protect the trails from you and you from yourself. Sorry if this isn't the choir response you expected to be preaching to. I took a lot of flack for my ticket circumstances when it went public those many years ago, and I had my snow shoes with me! Stop being a knucklehead.


Okay thank you for the guidance and priceless advice Kevin. I will never forget it!!!

In reality, I have never left the car without snowshoes only to wish I had brought them due to post-holing madness on the trail, but I have certainly brought my snowshoes and regretted it later on, so I'll continue to use the judgment I've gleaned from walking in the woods in the snow for years.

But Kevin, thank you for trying to help me see the way, I really appreciate it...you must really care about the trails! What a steward, protecting those poor little trails.

Edit: wow 4 pages, and the bullshit is flowing as thin as ever! Thanks for entertaining me between homework and classes everyone


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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 23, 2013
Stoked...

Thanks for the write-up Auto-X - I appreciate the insight being someone who has not been to the High Peaks region.


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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Jan 24, 2013
Rumney

Ben Brotelho wrote:
Okay thank you for the guidance and priceless advice Kevin. I will never forget it!!! In reality, I have never left the car without snowshoes only to wish I had brought them due to post-holing madness on the trail, but I have certainly brought my snowshoes and regretted it later on, so I'll continue to use the judgment I've gleaned from walking in the woods in the snow for years. But Kevin, thank you for trying to help me see the way, I really appreciate it...you must really care about the trails! What a steward, protecting those poor little trails.


You're welcome. There's hope for you yet ;).


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By Woodchuck ATC
Jan 24, 2013
Rock Wars, RRG, 2008

Is there a law as to which side of the ski track/snowshoe trail you can take a piss at? Hate to make yellow snow and get a ticket.


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By Gunkiemike
Jan 24, 2013

Woodchuck ATC wrote:
Is there a law as to which side of the ski track/snowshoe trail you can take a piss at? Hate to make yellow snow and get a ticket.


I think you're supposed to be 6 ft off the trail when you pee into the Ziploc bag.


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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Jan 25, 2013
Rumney

Gunkiemike wrote:
I think you're supposed to be 6 ft off the trail when you pee into the Ziploc bag.


I thought you were supposed to pee on your hiking partners to stay warm?

www.timesunion.com/local/article/Urine-is-of-little-relief-t>>>

^^Perfect example of why we need regulations - this was their "best thinking".


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 25, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on

Wow


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By MJMobes
From The land of steady habits
Jan 25, 2013
modern man

my experience is the post holing n00bs never make it much farther than a mile so who really cares? I have personally never had a problem with people walking all over my ski trails. Dog shit is another thing. All trailheads are a mess and cops should spend their time doing real work like busting dopers in the lots, no wait...

I'm still trying to picture someone on expensive AT skis, on a trail, stopping to yell at hikers and fill post holes. only in NY man.

this thread is funny


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By Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Jan 25, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenstein Amphitheater

You make me laugh TR!

That makes me wonder if this is a problem in other areas like out west. Anyone know?


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By Eric Engberg
Jan 25, 2013

Kirby1013 wrote:
You make me laugh TR! That makes me wonder if this is a problem in other areas like out west. Anyone know?


It's been a problem as long as I can remember (40+ years) in the White Mountains of NH. Read any of the hiker centric boards and you will see never ending rants from both sides. Of course in the "Live Free or Die" state there aren't any legal issues.

What is interesting is that any of this is actually news to anyone - should be common knowledge to anyone with any outdoors experience in the Northeast. Several of the folks upstream claim to be experienced but their lack of knowledge and understanding says otherwise. Oh well - I guess it's something each generation needs to relearn - just like being considerate to others and that it's not always "me, me, me"...


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By TWK
Jan 25, 2013

Post-holeing XC ski tracks will stop at the same time that people use their turn signals when changing lanes.
Skiers stay to one side, hikers and snowshoers stay out of the tracks--how hard is that?


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By Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Jan 25, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenstein Amphitheater

I figured it's a problem in New Hampshire. The Whites are just as close to the big cities as the Daks.

I love Canada! No one speeds, everyone uses their signal up there. No one passes you ice climbing or tries to snake your route.


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By Merlin
From Grand Junction
Jan 25, 2013

Post holing on ski/snow shoe trails suck. Relentless, ubiquitous law after law after law sucks worse. I've lived in NM, CO, PA, and NY.

NY is easily the most taxed, regulated, repressive state I've ever been in. If you ever get out west try RMNP, Zion, some BLM in Utah, etc. then go back and try not hating the DEC.


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By TWK
Jan 25, 2013

Merlin wrote:
Post holing on ski/snow shoe trails suck. Relentless, ubiquitous law after law after law sucks worse. I've lived in NM, CO, PA, and NY. NY is easily the most taxed, regulated, repressive state I've ever been in. If you ever get out west try RMNP, Zion, some BLM in Utah, etc. then go back and try not hating the DEC.

It's easy to agree with your sentiment (which I do), but it's not a valid comparison.
There's so much more public land of many jurisdictions out west, and generally fewer people. It's why I live in California. We, too, are over-regulated and charged excessive use fees if you stay in the heavily used popular sites. But it's so easy to find practically abandoned federal land, even close to large population centers.


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By MaxSuffering
From KVNY
Jan 25, 2013

No use fees in the Adirondacks. Unless of course you count actually paying a PARKING fee when parking on private land at Adk Loj or the Garden (which is easy to get around for anyone in the know).

The D.E.C can be a pain in the ass but unless you're leaving the Loj at 10am on a Saturday or trying to camp in the Marcy Dam-Lake Colden-Flowed Lands corridor one rarely has to deal with the rangers. Boo-hoo, you have to bring snowshoes in winter. Boo-hoo you have to keep your food in a bear resistant canister when camping. The fact that anyone would even suggest that the regulations in even the most heavily used portions of the Adirondacks are anything compared to what you find in the National Parks is amazing to me.

Has anyone else noticed that all the people who are complaining about the High Peaks regulations live somewhere else and some have even admitted to never having been here before? Come on up, ski a couple of hundred days in the High Peaks and see if your opinion on whether or not everyone should bring snowshoes in winter has changed. I'll wait.

Ben just out of curiosity how old are you? Homework and classes would indicate college age, maybe 25. How many days would you estimate you've spent in the backcountry in winter (real all day backcountry adventures, NOT roadside ice climbing) a couple of dozen, maybe? What I'm suggesting is that maybe you think you have a lot more experience than you actually do.


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 25, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on

Yeah I've never camped before...pretty inexperienced


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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 26, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on

Wanna take me camping? ;)


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By Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Jan 26, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenstein Amphitheater

Max, Yes I have. We do seem to be the minority here. I'm also seem to be the only decent human who owns a sled that yields to XC skiers. I wonder how long we could argue over who should have the right of way, sleds or skiers? Guess that's only a problem in Maine though.


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By MaxSuffering
From KVNY
Jan 26, 2013

Ben, that's cute but I wasn't asking about your camping experience. I asked specifically about your age and how many days you estimate you've spent in the High Peaks in full winter conditions. Your response is the sort of thing I would expect from a spoiled brat who just got shut down by logical argument.

I'm not sure I'd want to go camping with you but if you really want some advice I could probably teach you some of the things I learned from my six-week summer and two-week winter practicums in the Adirondacks while I was in college or over the several summers I worked in the backcountry in the White Mountains. I've done a little camping for pleasure as well and although I don't do much lately I think some of it will come back to me.

Kirby, I'm assuming you mean that everyone complaining about the High Peaks is from somewhere else. It's funny that I'm here defending the D.E.C. since I'm usually the one doing the criticizing.


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By Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Jan 26, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenstein Amphitheater

I thought of something else as I was napping these last couple hours. (climbing and the flu don't mix) I wonder how many people on here have XC skied before.

I used to think XC skiing was lame! My wife enjoys it and usually goes when I'm splitboarding. One day I was appreciating all my wife does for me and decided to go with. It's easy until the hills start! I think everyone would have a healthy respect for XC skiing if they did it once.


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By Auto-X Fil
From NEPA and Upper Jay, NY
Jan 26, 2013

Probably because most people think of XC skiing as cruising dead-flat groomed two-track for cardio. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's a challenge of form and technique and fitness. But it's not really exciting.

Busting trail on skinny skis, climbing with a herringbone or perfect classic technique, and descending even a moderate slope with zero support from the boot and a free heel... it's exciting! Often more Type II fun than AT or modern tele gear is, but still a good challenge. I think my next setup will be NNN-BC and Glittertinds.


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By Merlin
From Grand Junction
Jan 26, 2013

TWK wrote:
It's easy to agree with your sentiment (which I do), but it's not a valid comparison. There's so much more public land of many jurisdictions out west, and generally fewer people. It's why I live in California. We, too, are over-regulated and charged excessive use fees if you stay in the heavily used popular sites. But it's so easy to find practically abandoned federal land, even close to large population centers.


I get that massive population differences as well, still, it was a serious shock to the system.


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By TWK
Jan 26, 2013

I can hike in 6 miles from the car, which is parked by itself 40 miles from 14 million people, to a ridgetop, from which I can see hundreds of thousands of acres without another human around. Only elk, coyotes, deer, rabbits, quail, and golden eagles. Oh yeah, and rattlesnakes.
So it's important to pick your destination as well as your journey.


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By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Jan 27, 2013
Rumney

Ben Brotelho wrote:
Most people aren't this dumb, and it is a shame that freak incidents like this one and the idiots getting 'stuck' on the trap dike result in over regulation for people like us who don't have our heads up our asses (well, most of us at least.)


Based on the increasing frequency of incidents, I'd argue your numbers. There's several epic idiot adventures logged each year, and then there's the incidents where people barely get out of their own stupidity that we either never hear about (out of shame) or read about on a forum trip report (usually in a defensive posture).


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By Auto-X Fil
From NEPA and Upper Jay, NY
Jan 27, 2013

I have seen two parties epic on the Dike that never made it around the internet - one this year, and one last. Both were clearly ready for a multi-pitch WI2+ climb. Just not one with questionable (if any) protection, 2000' long, and 6 miles from the car.

When it's fully in, and the weather is nice, it's a total cruise, and even relative novices will skip the rope for most of it. But the post-Irene dike, with no vegetation to hold snow or provide anchors or relief from the exposure, is often much harder. Bailing back down the Dike is very difficult in early season, and in later season you'll need to be ready to make V-threads, a rare skill among novices in the northeast. And the new slide exit is sometimes thin, committing WI3 ice. Oh, and avalanche danger is much greater now.

I think the last two seasons have been worse in terms of incidents because people are still reading about the "old" Dike, and not being ready for a much more alpine experience. The difficulty grade hasn't changed, but I'd say it went from a II to a solid III in terms of seriousness.


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