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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 22, 2013
Topo - Cliffs in Green
um wow... no clue things were so regulated up there. Yet another reason to completely avoid NY. And here I was thinking about hitting some pow this winter in the ADKs. I'll stick to the Northeast Kingdom where they just don't have police or rangers and about 375" of snow.

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By Greg Pouliot
Jan 22, 2013
Ben Brotelho wrote:
I really don't want to read all of your responses...the snowshoe law is ridiculous definitely. It serves to protect only the skiers (with their fancy expensive gear) and their convenience of having a nice trail. Well...guess what? You're skiing on public property (at least to us NY state residents), and I'll be damned if I'm forced to heed to those who choose to explore the wilderness using a more expensive piece of equipment...being forced to buy/rent/spend money on EXTRA equipment to enjoy public lands seems a tad ridiculous to me.


You start a thread on MP and don't want responses? Complain somewhere else then. But really, the rules are there to keep everyone safe, not just skiers and their "fancy expensive gear." Post holes suck, and you should be thinking about others. It's the same reason you yell "rope" when you toss over the side of a cliff. It's the same reason you look up the hill before beginning your descent while skiing. There are other people in this world who enjoy the same activities you do, and it's really immature to have an, "I'm going to do what I want, when I want attitude." If you're that much of an outdoorsman, a $150-$200 purchase of a pair of snowshoes isn't going to kill you, and it will make for a much more pleasant experience for everybody while in the Dacks.

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By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 22, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on
Yeah, shouldn't have opened the can of worms! I have snowshoes, and I use them when conditions on the trail (or off the trail if that is part of the plan) dictate it, otherwise I try to leave them at home because they're heavy, and having a light pack allows me to travel faster, thus more safely. The rule is ludicrous because it takes away the ability of the public to make their own decisions pertaining to their safety, which is annoying. I will wear snowshoes for my own convenience and safety...but if people want to walk into the woods with a pack, hiking boots, and nothing else, then they should be allowed to.

The snowshoe-rule is essentially an entrance-fee to use the high peaks in the winter, which is unfair and does not resonate with the idea of public lands for public recreation, and the usual freedoms that enjoying the 'Dacks brings.

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By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
Jan 22, 2013
Day Lily.
This has `plagued` humanity since (at least) recorded history: where is the balance between freedom (complete freedom to its core, ex. Allow murder or not?)and order/government? This story with the `Daks` is nothing new...

Individuality (what I desire and will do) versus society/community/ the whole of existence.

FLAG
By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 22, 2013
Topo - Cliffs in Green
Gregory Pouliot wrote:
You start a thread on MP and don't want responses? Complain somewhere else then. But really, the rules are there to keep everyone safe, not just skiers and their "fancy expensive gear." Post holes suck, and you should be thinking about others. It's the same reason you yell "rope" when you toss over the side of a cliff. It's the same reason you look up the hill before beginning your descent while skiing. There are other people in this world who enjoy the same activities you do, and it's really immature to have an, "I'm going to do what I want, when I want attitude." If you're that much of an outdoorsman, a $150-$200 purchase of a pair of snowshoes isn't going to kill you, and it will make for a much more pleasant experience for everybody while in the Dacks.


I too am put off by a rule like this and agree it would amount to a tax or fee for winter use. Do they also require you to wear a jacket in the winter? Isn't that a safety issue for you, rescue and other users?

I also would love to get some insight as to why people are skiing down hiking trails??? That, to me, is the obvious dumb dumb move. When we hike around VT (Mansfield and Jay peak areas) most times we hike up a boot pack (w/ postholes sometimes) or create a boot pack and ski down the natural features of the woods/mountains. Seriously, why the hell would you want to ski down a hiking trail? As a prime example - Mnt Washington has designated ski and hiking trails. But regardless of designated trails... why wouldn't you just ski down in the woods rather then the hiking/walking trail? Isn't it like exponentially more dangerous for hikers to have skiers ripping down the same trail?

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By PeterW
From Dryden, NY
Jan 22, 2013
CaptainMo wrote:
I too am put off by a rule like this and agree it would amount to a tax or fee for winter use. Do they also require you to wear a jacket in the winter? Isn't that a safety issue for you, rescue and other users? I also would love to get some insight as to why people are skiing down hiking trails??? That, to me, is the obvious dumb dumb move. When we hike around VT (Mansfield and Jay peak areas) most times we hike up a boot pack (w/ postholes sometimes) or create a boot pack and ski down the natural features of the woods/mountains. Seriously, why the hell would you want to ski down a hiking trail? As a prime example - Mnt Washington has designated ski and hiking trails. But regardless of designated trails... why wouldn't you just ski down in the woods rather then the hiking/walking trail? Isn't it like exponentially more dangerous for hikers to have skiers ripping down the same trail?


Because the hiking trails provide access from the parking lot to the slides. Creating separate ski trails to each slide would be...involved. Once on a slide it is pretty common to boot up if conditions warrant. No regs on booting/snowshoes off trail.

FLAG
By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 22, 2013
Topo - Cliffs in Green
PeterW wrote:
Because the hiking trails provide access from the parking lot to the slides. Creating separate ski trails to each slide would be...involved. Once on a slide it is pretty common to boot up if conditions warrant. No regs on booting/snowshoes off trail.


Wasn't suggesting cutting new trails but figuring out how to ski from the slide to the lot would be part of the descent. It kinda comes across as well I don't want to bother to ski down the rest of the mountain so I'm gonna ski down the hiking trail. Just seems somewhat backwards... sure if I wanna post hole my sorry ass up a trail why shouldn't I be allowed to do that? You have the entire forest to ski down, no? Given they have the entire forest to hike as well but really the hiking trail was made for hiking, no?

I could totally see giving a ticket to someone trying to ski down a hiking trail since that creates a really dangerous situation and could kill a hiker (regardless of footware). But giving someone a ticket because they didn't use what some people say is appropriate footwear on a hiking trail (doing what they're supposed to do on a hiking trail, by the way) doesn't seem appropriate from big picture. The law sounds like it was written for skiers by skiers and is unfair... and I'm a die hard skier.

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By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 22, 2013
Topo - Cliffs in Green
When I ski down Mansfield I would NEVER imagine trying to ski down the The Long Trail. And if I run into it I try to get off it as quickly as possible. And I would never imagine being pissed or thinking that laws should be written to restrain hikers from using a hiking trail in the winter without snowshoes cause it ruins my skiing down a hiking trail.

Am I nutz or something? What am I not getting here? Are these old ski trails that someone decided to hike up and a hiking trail was subsequently made out of old ski trails? The trail sounds convenient for skiers but really just a cop out. Grow a pair and find your way down the mountain like a real BC skier.

FLAG
 
By Greg Pouliot
Jan 22, 2013
CaptainMo wrote:
When I ski down Mansfield I would NEVER imagine trying to ski down the The Long Trail. And if I run into it I try to get off it as quickly as possible. And I would never imagine being pissed or thinking that laws should be written to restrain hikers from using a hiking trail in the winter without snowshoes cause it ruins my skiing down a hiking trail. Am I nutz or something? What am I not getting here? Are these old ski trails that someone decided to hike up and a hiking trail was subsequently made out of old ski trails? The trail sounds convenient for skiers but really just a cop out. Grow a pair and find your way down the mountain like a real BC skier.


Are you talking about alpine skiing or x-country skiing? If you're talking about alpine, I'd agree with you. Alpine skiers have no business skiing down a hiking trail. But the skiers most are referring to are x-country skiers, who I believe have every right to use the hiking trails. A lot of trails in the Dacks are heavily trafficked. Unfortunately a lot of this traffic is from people who don't know what the hell they're doing while walking down the street, let alone hiking in the woods in the winter time. I agree that it's a touchy subject. People go into the woods to do what they want and to get away from rules, and there are lots of us. Just be courteous is all. That's the real point of the rules.

FLAG
By PeterW
From Dryden, NY
Jan 22, 2013
The woods in the adk's are thicker (from what I hear) than they are in vermont. Bushwhacking through the woods on skis in the high peaks can get pretty heinous. Also, most of the slide approaches have significant overland sections, so you really aren't "skiing down the mountain" the whole time. The hiking trails provide the only real clear path. I am talking about tele/at skiing.

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By Chad Wagner
Jan 22, 2013
me
Its the Peoples Republic of New York, what do you expect? Socialists!!

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By Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Jan 22, 2013
Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenste...
Wow.. After reading the last few posts all I got is to say is.. WOW lots of misunderstanding going on.

I also never knew we had so many neo con climbers out there. Who says you can't learn anything on MP!

FLAG
By Morgan Patterson
Administrator
Jan 22, 2013
Topo - Cliffs in Green
Gregory Pouliot wrote:
Are you talking about alpine skiing or x-country skiing? If you're talking about alpine, I'd agree with you. Alpine skiers have no business skiing down a hiking trail. But the skiers most are referring to are x-country skiers, who I believe have every right to use the hiking trails. A lot of trails in the Dacks are heavily trafficked. Unfortunately a lot of this traffic is from people who don't know what the hell they're doing while walking down the street, let alone hiking in the woods in the winter time. I agree that it's a touchy subject. People go into the woods to do what they want and to get away from rules, and there are lots of us. Just be courteous is all. That's the real point of the rules.


yup totally thinking alpine... so that's what I was missing, thanks! I'm just picturing my ass maching down the Long Trail and what it would be like to encounter a group of hikers mid winter. Pretty sure someone would end up a bloody mess.

FLAG
By Auto-X Fil
From NEPA and Upper Jay, NY
Jan 22, 2013
Just like anywhere else, the Adirondacks have a unique and long history of mountain use. The High Peaks area is unique within the park.

Note: the High Peaks Area is 3.3% of the Adirondacks. It sees the most visitors, but there are many other places you can go and not abide by the rules which ONLY apply to the High Peaks Ara. This includes rules about campsite location, campfires, group size, and snowshoes.

Most of the comments in this thread show ignorance for the local traditions and practices. This is not surprising, as the Adirondacks are unusual mountains, with wide, clear slide paths and alpine zones separated by thick, sometimes dangerous conifers and brush. Skiiable woods are quite rare in the High Peaks region. Alpine zones are not connected like in the Whites. Snow cover is often thin down low, as the Whites and Greens stop most of the moisture from the Atlantic, and Canadian air masses rarely bring much.

Yet, skiing is a popular sport in the Adirondacks in winter. Several of the most popular hiking trails are low-angle enough that a skilled skier can negotiate them on planks without harming anyone. Steep sections are bypassed with skier-only trails, but to keep impact low trails are often shared. It is rarely any kind of issue, with snow-shoers and skiers co-existing peacefully for the most part.

To give you an idea of these trails - the most popular are skied on everything from edge-less skinny classic XC skis, to beefy AT, Tele, and splitboard setups. The XC skiers are badasses who enjoy the challenge of moving over somewhat steep terrain on light gear, and the group on heavy gear is usually using the trails to access slides.

When I ski the trails on a Dynafit setup, I'm often skiing up and down in touring mode, except on special ski-trail sections like on Marcy or Wright Peak. Those ski-only trails are very much like skiing backcountry trails in VT or NH, and the same rules apply. But skiing the hiking trails is a uniquely Adirondack thing. (Although people do tour the Long Trail, they are oddballs as I understand it).

The trail up Marcy is a big issue, because it's got magnificent skiing and also sees Mt. Washington-like crowds. There are ski-only sections, but shared sections exist as well.

I'm very much against un-necessary regulation. If it were up to me, I would not have the law, and let the issue be self-policing. It's that way on the trail into the North Face of Pitchoff, where the snowshoe rule does not apply. Skiers and ice climbers share the trail (it's actually a XC ski-only trail, but ice climbers use it for access). For the most part, things are civilized, and we end up with a set of double-track and a set of boot-pack.

But, I see why it's there. I skied Marcy a couple weeks ago, and made probably 10 people stop to put on snowshoes. Everybody but one was postholing right in front of me, with snowshoes on their back. I was skiing along, shoveling holes full - a warm spell was coming which would open them all up into caverns. Again, think of Mt. Washington crowds, glissading the Lion's Head with crampons on, or getting lost in the Alpine Garden. The Rangers can only see so many people do the same stupid things before they are (understandably) going to want to stop it.

Right now there is a ranger (or more than one) humping up and down the trail on skis or snowshoes, shoveling postholes full to keep travel safe and easy. I'm sure they are glad they can ticket someone for lack of snowshoes, and I see why they would get frustrated and go on a ticket-writing rampage. They aren't facists - just sick of inconsiderate people making their lives harder.

So, let me reiterate:

1) The Daks are different. The locals like it that way, and if you don't like it - fine, stay away. But I suggest you come with an open mind, buy the local ski, ice, and hiking guidebooks (the ski and hike have the same author/editor, BTW), and find out what the fuss is about.

2) This liberal vs. libertarian thing can go back and forth forever. Can we just drop it? The rules are there, and they are there for dumbfuck hikers who don't belong in the mountains. We are mostly experienced hikers, climbers, and skiers who are going to be considerate and polite. Let's just be that way, and not stoop lower.

FLAG
By MaxSuffering
From KVNY
Jan 22, 2013
CaptainMo you're right, you should stick to Vermont... don't come here. There's nothing here that compares to what they've got on Mansfield or Jay Peak. Those areas are for real backcountry skiers.

I've skied many, many days in the High Peaks and used trails to get to and from all sorts of stuff and never had a problem avoiding hikers while skiing down trails. In fact the only problems I've ever had with hikers in the winter is the assholes who posthole. Hmmm, did we just come full circle there. If you continually find yourself maching down trails unable to stop or avoid people maybe you should get some practice at lift served resorts.

Again Ben, I know that you're entitled to do whatever you want because you're one of the chosen few to rise to the challenge of climbing the Trap Dike last year. Sorry to have questioned your judgement. (But if you want to discuss light and fast my personal record car-to-car on the Trap Dike is 2hr 48min, the actual speed record is well under that... just saying.)

On another note I really hope that people don't get the idea that the Adirondacks are run like some sort of prison camp. In fact in practice it's pretty unregulated compared to many other popular areas in the country. Point of fact: I skied in the High Peaks the past four days (note the holiday weekend)and ran into one ranger who only said "Hi," asked about my day and made chit-chat.

Auto-X Fil, well said. I see your posts here and elsewhere. Get a hold of me if you're looking for a partner sometime.

FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 22, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on
It's really an issue of principle. I use my snowshoes when they're appropriate and helpful, and don't when they're not. I am a skier as well, and can appreciate the desire to ski nice trails to access slides, and as a matter of courtesy I try to remember to move off the main part of the trail if I find myself post-holing. But here's the clincher: the "artificial" courtesy created by establishing a rule like this is not right.

To require specialized equipment to use public land and trails seems backwards to me. What if NY required UIAA certified climbing gear to climb chapel pond slab? These what-if's can go on forever.

and Maxsuffering: not sure if you're being sarcastic about me "rising to the challenge" of the Trap Dike, because it is really quite an easy climb. Since you apparently understand the "fast and light" principle, I'm sure you would agree that ditching the snowshoes in a lot of circumstances makes sense? Just as I'm sure you wouldn't bring tampons into the woods if you were sure that it wasn't that time of the month...

I was stopped by the ranger when the circumstances did not at all require I wear or carry snowshoes, with a nice packed snow trail that made for easy walking. NY legislates to protect the weakest, dumbest morons, which is a shame because it really renders darwinism useless.

FLAG
 
By Auto-X Fil
From NEPA and Upper Jay, NY
Jan 22, 2013
Ben-

We all dislike the law. Nobody in the whole thread has said, "this law is wonderful, necessary, and we need more like it!"

However, it is a very minor encroachment compared to other things in life, so I don't let it get my dander up too much. I suggest you do the same. I also suggest you bring snowshoes for most trips - it's REALLY hard to tell what trail conditions are going to be like in Avy Pass, based on things in the Valley or even at the Loj. I banged the dike out in 6 hours - belaying a noob up damn near the whole thing 60m at a time - last year. We rented snowshoes and dragged them up, and wore them coming down off the summit (over Guide Tennies). I did NOT do that because of the law, I did it because it's courteous and safer.

Also - I've thought about selling (or just making for my own use) really tiny "snowshoes" which would technically be snowshoes, but would mostly be light, cheap ticket avoidance for those hard-packed days. I'm all for creative civil disobedience, and I'd love to see you head up there with an over-sized milk-jug anti-bot "snowshoe" on your crampons the next time it truly is hard-packed all the way up (like it probably is right now, after that melt/freeze).

It's quittin' time on the East Coast. I'm going to work out and pop a malted and hopped recovery beverage. I hope you'll do the same!

FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 22, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on
"Also - I've thought about selling (or just making for my own use) really tiny "snowshoes" which would technically be snowshoes, but would mostly be light, cheap ticket avoidance for those hard-packed days. I'm all for creative civil disobedience, and I'd love to see you head up there with an over-sized milk-jug anti-bot "snowshoe" on your crampons the next time it truly is hard-packed all the way up (like it probably is right now, after that melt/freeze).

It's quittin' time on the East Coast. I'm going to work out and pop a malted and hopped recovery beverage. I hope you'll do the same!"

That tiny snowshoe idea is great, I'd buy a pair from ya! And I just cracked a hoppy brew myself...cheers!

FLAG
By MaxSuffering
From KVNY
Jan 22, 2013
Yup, just in case anyone missed it that's sarcasm. I thought I was laying it on thick enough. The Trap Dike is easy enough that in the right conditions it's considered one of the great ski descents of the Adirondacks.

One problem with your logic is that you assume trail conditions at the Loj parking lot will be representative of what you'll encounter for the rest of your trip. Obviously there are times when snowshoes are not needed (i.e. if someone told me on the summit of Algonquin yesterday that I needed to put my skis back on I would have laughed at them) but honestly if you're leaving to climb in the High Peaks in mid-winter and are not at least carrying snowshoes or skis you are retarded! And trust me I'm not the sort of guy who goes overboard on safety. Are you really willing to turn around if you encounter 8" or more of snow partway into your trip or will you continue on postholing and be one of the guys who messes up the trail for everybody?

Pete Fish used to give people the option of the ticket and fine or filling in every posthole all the way back to their car. I miss that guy.

As for tampons I don't carry them ever because I'm not a whiny little bitch.

EDIT: ...wow two other posts just while I was writing this, I guess everyone's wound up. Maybe we're getting somewhere.

FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 22, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on
"One problem with your logic is that you assume trail conditions at the Loj parking lot will be representative of what you'll encounter for the rest of your trip."

I don't see that logic taken anywhere from my posts...I had a good idea of what the trail conditions would be like given the recent weather at the time, and made the judgment to leave the snowshoes in the car.

I started this thread more or less as an amused observation to a rule that I didn't know existed in the high-peaks (quiet hours), and now it has gotten everyone's panties (including mine) in a knot. We should all just have a beer or two I suppose

FLAG
By Ben Brotelho
From Albany, NY
Jan 22, 2013
Epic free solo with a pack on
If you're wondering, I wear granny-panties...thongs and g-strings are just too uncomfortable for me

FLAG
By J. Albers
From Colorado
Jan 22, 2013
Bucky
Ben Brotelho wrote:
I really don't want to read all of your responses...the snowshoe law is ridiculous definitely. It serves to protect only the skiers (with their fancy expensive gear) and their convenience of having a nice trail. Well...guess what? You're skiing on public property (at least to us NY state residents), and I'll be damned if I'm forced to heed to those who choose to explore the wilderness using a more expensive piece of equipment...being forced to buy/rent/spend money on EXTRA equipment to enjoy public lands seems a tad ridiculous to me.


Said the self-entitled guy.....

Me, me, me, me, meeeee!!! Did you hear me everyone? I said ME!!

FLAG
By Marc H
From Lafayette, CO
Jan 22, 2013
The Cathedral Spires in RMNP, left to right: Stile...
Auto-X Fil wrote:
I don't like the law, but you can bet that if I find you postholing down the trail I'm going to berate you for it. It's extremely rude and selfish to not have snowshoes up there in the winter.


"Berating" people is just going to alienate them. If you try to politely educate people on why they shouldn't be postholing, you'd probably convert some of them. Occasionally someone might still tell you to fuck off, but being friendly at least gives you a chance to change someone's behavior.

Auto-X Fil wrote:
Right now there is a ranger shoveling postholes full to keep travel safe and easy.


I wouldn't be happy if my tax dollars and/or entrance fees were paying for this. I don't think it should be the Rangers' job to keep trails "safe and easy" for one user group. And yes, I am a BC skier.

Auto-X wrote:
The locals like it that way, and if you don't like it - fine, stay away.


I think it's interesting that you think you can speak for all of the "locals." Especially considering you don't even have a name on your profile. And the fact that there are postholes on some of the trails in the High Peaks suggest that your statement is wrong.

Auto-x wrote:
The rules are there, and they are there for dumbfuck hikers who don't belong in the mountains. We are mostly experienced hikers, climbers, and skiers who are going to be considerate and polite. Let's just be that way, and not stoop lower.


I don't think it's up to you to decide who can enjoy our public lands. Occasionally gumbies are going to use them. Can you just accept that they have as much right to be there as you and drop your holier-than-thou attitude towards public lands?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J Albers wrote:
Said the self-entitled guy.....Me, me, me, me, meeeee!!! Did you hear me everyone? I said ME!!


I really have no dog in this fight. But I think your statement could more easily be attributed to the attitudes of some of the skiers.

FLAG
By Auto-X Fil
From NEPA and Upper Jay, NY
Jan 22, 2013
Marc, I'm not at all trying to make this a fight. Please don't take quotes out of context to make me sound argumentative. The one about Locals in particular sounds nothing like what I was trying to say. I was talking about the mountains and use in general, not posthole regulations.

I meant that if you prefer open glades and deep pow, ski Vermont. I mean, who doesn't, really?

Also, I'm very easy to find online. I don't see where there's a spot to put a name in my profile, but I'm Phil Maynard and I don't hide that.

Marc H wrote:
"Berating" people is just going to alienate them. If you try to politely educate people on why they shouldn't be postholing, you'd probably convert some of them.


OK, that was hyperbole on my part - I've been very polite with every postholer, and they have all happily agreed to put them on. I've never had so much as a heated discussion on the trail with someone.

Marc H wrote:
I don't think it's up to you to decide who can enjoy our public lands. Occasionally gumbies are going to use them. Can you just accept that they have as much right to be there as you and drop your holier-than-thou attitude towards public lands?


That is not at all what I meant. These people are the same types getting in trouble on Long's because the Keyhole is a "hike". They most certainly have a RIGHT to be there, and I would never attempt to deprive them of it. I suggest - politely - that they try something a bit shorter and easier for their first winter hike, whenever my opinion is welcome.


Also, I did not suggest that it was GOOD that a ranger was out there shoveling the trails. I would much rather not have taxes pay for that, as I am perfectly capable of filling in the holes myself if I wish to. Like I said - let's not make this a political debate.

I only wanted to point out WHY a ranger might act that way. They are doing their job and getting paid, and people are making it unnecessarily hard on them. I'm just showing that they are humans and might have a bad day. So please don't paint them all with a broad Snowshoe-Nazi brush.

FLAG
 
By Kevin Heckeler
From Upstate New York
Jan 23, 2013
Rumney
Ben Brotelho wrote:
"One problem with your logic is that you assume trail conditions at the Loj parking lot will be representative of what you'll encounter for the rest of your trip." I don't see that logic taken anywhere from my posts...I had a good idea of what the trail conditions would be like given the recent weather at the time, and made the judgment to leave the snowshoes in the car.


Your judgment is impaired if that is/was your thinking. Carry the shoes. Your thought process supports why the snow shoe regulation exists. In this case, to protect the trails from you and you from yourself.

Sorry if this isn't the choir response you expected to be preaching to. I took a lot of flack for my ticket circumstances when it went public those many years ago, and I had my snow shoes with me! Stop being a knucklehead.

FLAG


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