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Quickdraws, alpine draws ... the basics and where to start?

Original Post
Mike Lofgren · · Reading, MA · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 90

Hey,

I'm a new outdoor climber and am asking a question that's probably been asked many times - where to start with quickdraws alpine draws. I just finished the Boston AMC Rock Program, where we were taught knots, how to second on trad, how to rappel and ascend, build top rope anchors, and clean fixed anchors - cool.

Now I'm buying gear and figured draws are a good place to start. So, which draws should I buy or what type of carabiners should I buy to assemble my own alpine draws?

I'm thinking I'll wind up doing a mixture of sport and trad. I'm also keen beginning ice climbing and I'd like my gear, ideally, to be useful for all of those types of climbing. Maybe that's not a reasonable expectation.

My inclination was to assemble my own alpine draws from a 60 cm sling of 8 mm dyneema, linking two wire gate carabiners. I was planning to go with wiregates over solid gate keylocks for weight, safety, and suitability for alpine/ice climbing.

Question(s) 1:
What characteristics should my wiregate carabiners possess? Should my rope end and bolt/gear end carabiners have different characteristics (ie straight or bent gates, size, weight, hooded/notched/notch free gates)? Which characteristics are important

Question 2:
Can I use alpine draws for sport climbing?

Question 3:
How much should carabiner weight matter to me?

Question 4:
Relating to question 1, can you recommend any to me?

I found a good deal on some BD Hoodwires and bought 10, and I'll use those for one end of my draws. I'll probably buy both dyneema slings and dogbones so I can convert my draws to alpine or sport, depending on whether I'm sport or trad climbing.

I'd really appreciate any advice you can give me. Thanks!

Matt Carroll · · Van · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 249

I like to go straight on one end and bent gate on the other. I also use different colors so I know which is which without any hassle.

Yes you can use them for sport climbing. Just be mindful of any nicks that develope on the bolt side Biner, eventually they can get sharp and then potentially harm your cam slings if your trad climbing. This is probobably a minimal threat but worth at least being aware of.

I wouldn't be super concerned with weight, I bought some of the nano biners to be weight conscious, and hated them because there so small.

Matt Carroll · · Van · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 249

Also, when I "built" my alpine draws, I bought 2 packs of quick draws because that allowed me to use a 20% off coupon and get the biners for much cheeper then they would have been on there own, not to mention you get dog bones as well. It was cheeper for me, probably not by a whole lot, but a few bucks here and there add up.

Mike Lofgren · · Reading, MA · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 90

Are bent wiregate carabiners much easier to clip your rope into than straight wiregate carabiners? I can see how a bent solid gate is easer to clip into than a straight solid gate... but maybe I'm wrong.

I see many companies selling quickdraws where both wiregate carabiners are straight gate...

mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120
Lofg0029 wrote:My inclination was to assemble my own alpine draws from a 60 cm sling of 8 mm dyneema, linking two wire gate carabiners. I was planning to go with wiregates over solid gate keylocks for weight, safety, and suitability for alpine/ice climbing.
Generally accepted practice for Alpine/trad draws.

Lofg0029 wrote:Question(s) 1: What characteristics should my wiregate carabiners possess? Should my rope end and bolt/gear end carabiners have different characteristics (ie straight or bent gates, size, weight, hooded/notched/notch free gates)? Which characteristics are important
Bolt end: more sport than alpine, many prefer keylocks over wire gates (myself included). For clipping bolts generally better to have closures that do not snag, so keylock or some kind of embedded or hooded wire gate closure.

Rope end: ease of clipping and reducing gate flutter are the two biggest concerns for me. Ease of clipping will depend on your hand and clipping techniques. Last week I just set up all my different wire gates to assess clipping ease and found some interesting things:

The "bent gate" wires I have are harder to clip for me than the straight gates. This is because the bend in the wire obscures rather than exposes more of the nose of the biner where the gate closes. A more prominent shelf where the wire engages is easier to hook the rope into so it opens the gate and slides in.

Ergonomics: my hand size works really well clipping certain size biners and horribly on others. Two observed aspects to this: the overall size of the biner (I don't do well with smaller biners, and the micros for me totally suck), and how far the biner curves up to the gate closure. a little longer curve up to the gate opening makes it easier to clip. People with different size hands probably prefer different biners for rope clipping than I do.

Lofg0029 wrote: Question 2: Can I use alpine draws for sport climbing?
Yes, however, compared to wider stiffer dogbones, they do not hold the biner as well for ease of clipping (i.e. tend to twist much more easily) The other thing is, bolt end biners that become scored at the hook can become hazardous if the rope runs over the roughness and is damaged in a fall.

Lofg0029 wrote: Question 3: How much should carabiner weight matter to me?
Subject to debate for sure. To me, sport/quickdraw weight is a minimal concern, but when leading long trad routes the cumulative total weight of a rack of lighter biners makes enough difference to me to be of concern.

Lofg0029 wrote: Question 4: Relating to question 1, can you recommend any to me?
I think you have to try different things to find what works best for you. My own favorite bolt end biners are Petzl Spirit, favorite rope end BD hotwires (the newer version), favorite sport dogbones Petzl Spirit or BD variwidth with Petzl string keepers, favorite trad biners are many, a couple examples CAMP orbits, Metolius inferno, Wild country, Mammut..., Favorite racking biners for cams CAMP photons, favorite racking biners for wires Old ovals with a pinned gate.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

- your hotwires will work fine

- if you are climbing alot of overhanging sport a notchless biner on the bolt end is easier to clean

- if you are handogging and whipping alot beefy biners and dogbones last a bit longer and are easier to grab

- get a different colored biner for the rope (or bolt) end to keep track ... Or spray it with paint/ use tape

- 10mm slings are more durable than 8mm ones with a minimal increase in weight if you choose the dyneema route ... Which you will if u use em for ice, water absorption

- slings have a nasty habit of tangling at the worst time on yr harness ... In hard leads a quickdraw is easier to clip

But at the end if the day you can make any decent biner, sling, dogbone will work

;)

Mike Lofgren · · Reading, MA · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 90

Thank you! That's super helpful!

I bought some BD Hoodwire carabiners, which reduce snagging on rope/gear. My reasoning is that they're small enough to fit into cracks when I'm trade climbing, but large enough to grab onto while I'm clipping bolts while sport climbing. Also, the hooded gate would reduce snagging on bolts when I'm sport climbing...

For the rope end, I was eyeing up the Camp Photon or BD Hotwire straight gate. Both have a notched gate, but they're light, large, and have a big gate clearance... I figured that combination would make them easy to clip my rope into.

The other factor is what's on sale, because money does factor into my decision...

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

Just want to add, if your ice climbing then a full size biner will be easier to handle. Also if you decide on a wire gate, get on that has a shielding hood.
like these

rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

NOT LIKE THIS

mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120
Lofg0029 wrote:Thank you! That's super helpful! I bought some BD Hoodwire carabiners, which reduce snagging on rope/gear. My reasoning is that they're small enough to fit into cracks when I'm trade climbing, but large enough to grab onto while I'm clipping bolts while sport climbing. Also, the hooded gate would reduce snagging on bolts when I'm sport climbing... For the rope end, I was eyeing up the Camp Photon or BD Hotwire straight gate. Both have a notched gate, but they're light, large, and have a big gate clearance... I figured that combination would make them easy to clip my rope into. The other factor is what's on sale, because money does factor into my decision...
Both CAMP photon and Hotwires are very easy for me to clip, however I really prefer the Hotwire for draws. They are beefier. The photons are a bit flimsy feeling, great for racking, less confidence inspiring on a draw.
Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50
Lofg0029 wrote:1: What characteristics should my wiregate carabiners possess?
It should be UIAA and/or CE certified (objective).
It should be comfortable (mostly subjective).
It is better to have (even slightly) hooded binners (e.g., Wild Country Helium is fully hooded, Metolius Inferno is partially hooded, CAMP Nano 23 is not hooded at all).

Lofg0029 wrote:Question 2: Can I use alpine draws for sport climbing?
You can although you do not want to.

Personally I bring one alpine QD to sport cragging day to have an option to reduce a rope drag on waiving routes.

Lofg0029 wrote:Question 3: How much should carabiner weight matter to me?
This is subjective. Light is right although heavy binners are more stable and provide an extra peace of mind when clipping to not-that-bomber nut. I would say the last argument is a bit off 'cause one can clip a water bottle or a lanch bag to a questionable placed pro to reduce walking. Also lighter binners are often smaller. Personally I have half ultralight and half >=1oz grabby binners.

Lofg0029 wrote:Question 4: Relating to question 1, can you recommend any to me?
A lot of options:
  • Trango Phase and Cypher Ceres II (the same binner, different OEM brands)
  • Metolius Inferno (this is built to survive an atomic blast, bomber) and Bravo
  • DMM Alpha Trad and Shield (this is built to empty your pockets)
  • BD Oz and Hoodwire
  • WC Helium and Astro
  • Grivel Plume wire
  • Petzl Ange S, and Ange L (the best nose profile, expensive, S is small, L is heavy)
  • Mad Rock Ultra-Light
  • CAMP Nano 22 and Photon (Photon is full size at 29g)

According to my the best knowledge the best way to buy a lot of binners is to buy 5- or 6- packs of quickdraws on a good sale.

Also sometimes one can find a rack pack on a good sale (e.g., right now Trango Phase Mega Rack Pack is on $32.87 sale = $4.11 per binner). This option adds an extra jazz to one's rack :)
Mike Lofgren · · Reading, MA · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 90

Thanks Pavel! I think my setup will be like this:

Bolt end: BD Hoodwire
Draw Sling: Whatever 15 cm dogbone is on sale (for sport draw). 8-10 mm dyneema 60 cm for alpine draw
Rope End: Probably BD Hotwire

Thoughts?

Lastly, how many? I was going to start off by building 10...

mtnmandan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 5
Lofg0029 wrote:Thanks Pavel! I think my setup will be like this: Bolt end: BD Hoodwire Draw Sling: Whatever 15 cm dogbone is on sale (for sport draw). 8-10 mm dyneema 60 cm for alpine draw Rope End: Probably BD Hotwire Thoughts? Lastly, how many? I was going to start off by building 10...
New England Trad / Ice / Sport climber here. That setup will be good for you. FWIW, I vote for the Photons for rope end. I love them, they're lighter and bigger than hotwires, and the gate action is better than BDs. You'll mainly notice when you're winter climbing with thick gloves. But the hotwire works too.

More to the point, I have 7 15cm dyneema quick draws and 5 60cm alpine draws. I have found this to be about perfect. My main point is that you probably don't want all alpine draws. Ice climbing (and trad climbing), you'll frequently just clip a regular quick draw to a screw or nut.

I will add a couple over the shoulder 60cm and 120cm slings and a few free biners, especially on wandering routes.
mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120

I've been climbing sport recently and a couple 100ft routes used up to 14 draws.

Trad multi pitch with long and/or combined pitches, I carry up to 10-12 trad and 4-6 sport draws, up to about 15 total which allows pro every 10 ft for 150'

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

Q1:
this is just my opinion but i like to use very lightweight wiregates, such as the camp nano, on my protection side because it doesn't need to be as durable as the rope side and it doesn't need to be as easy to clip as the rope side. for rope side, i prefer a fairly lightweight full size wiregate that is easy to clip and has a wide gate opening, such as the camp photon. also, your pro side and rope side should be easily distinguishable, such as different colors. i prefer silver for the pro side and colorful for the rope side.
Q2: yes you can, but be sure to always clip the same side biner to the bolts
Q3: weight does matter but, depending on the intended use, other characteristics, such as ease of clipping, may take priority over weight.
Q4: i would suggest a keylock/notchless biner for the bolt side on your quick draws. for your rope side biner, you want one that is easy to clip, has a deep basket, and has a good amount of material and extra thickness where the rope runs over the biner. generally speaking, wiregates and bent gate solid gate biners will be easier to clip. for slings, i would suggest 10mm-13mm rather than 8mm b/c it will be much more durable. i really like the bluewater titan slings which are 13mm and a mix of nylon/dyneema.

also, i would suggest having both a set of quickdraws and a set of alpine draws rather than switching out the biners for slings/dogbones.

Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50
Lofg0029 wrote:Lastly, how many? I was going to start off by building 10...
10 alpine draws is a way too much. It is a rare case one needs to place that many pieces of pro at single pitch. Moreover, if the pitch is so windy there is an obvious need to break it down to at least 2 pitches.

I usually carry (skipped) it is irrelevant. After reading my message before sending it I deleted more than half of the text and would suggest to take the remaining first paragraph with a grain of salt :) It is better to seek an advice from locals - every climbing location is unique and there is no the best trad rack. At The Needles one barely needs a couple of alpine draws, at Suicide Rock it is better to have at least 4, heading to Leavenworth, WA I will grab half a dozen of them.
mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120
Pavel Burov wrote: It is better to seek an advice from locals - every climbing location is unique and there is no the best trad rack. At The Needles one barely needs a couple of alpine draws, at Suicide Rock it is better to have at least 4, heading to Leavenworth, WA I will grab half a dozen of them.
Bingo. Locally in eldo I use runners for almost all placements and there are many long, combined and or wandering pitches where I would run out of runners if I only had ten. At Indian creek generally zero.
Mike Lofgren · · Reading, MA · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 90

Okay, so it sounds like I should have a 60/40ish mix of quick draws to alpine, roughly.

These replies have been super informative!

Mike Lofgren · · Reading, MA · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 90

Bent or straight wire gate for the rope end?

mtnmandan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 5
Lofg0029 wrote:Bent or straight wire gate for the rope end?
I like bent, but the difference in practice is pretty minimal. If you go BD, then the choice is already made for you.
mountainhick · · Black Hawk, CO · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 120
Lofg0029 wrote:Bent or straight wire gate for the rope end?
Answered in my first post above. Your experience and preference may turn out to be different.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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