Login with Facebook
 ADVANCED
Question regarding rappelling with two ropes...
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
   Page 1 of 1.  
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
 
By Kyle Bichler
From Cleveland, OH
May 23, 2013
RRG
I am looking to do a couple sport climbs this summer that will require the use of two ropes in order to rappel. I will be using the EDK to join two 60m ropes together. However, my question is how do I get the second rope up to the top?

-Can I tie the second rope into my harness and trail it while climbing?

or...

-Would it be possible to already have the second rope attached and when I reach the top I can just pull the rope through until the knot is at the anchors?

or...

-Could the belayer tie the ropes together once I am at the anchors and I then could pull the knot up to the anchors to rappel?

This all seems plausible to me but I could not find any information regarding it online so I am looking for advice. I appreciate any help.

Note: I will be the only one leading and rappelling these routes. I hope these questions are clear enough. Thank you !

FLAG
By Jeff Young
From Palmer, AK
May 23, 2013
First option is going to be your best bet. If you think about it for a minute you will understand pretty quickly why the other two won't work particularly well. Make sure you're well versed on anchor building and belaying a second from above as well so as not to get in over your head. Oh and yer.... oh nevermind.

FLAG
By Mark Mueller
From Flagstaff, AZ
May 23, 2013
Great quality rock on this one!
the knot won't pull through your QD's dude...

EDIT to add: either tow it up on your harness or put it on your back

EDIT to add: get a 70m instead

FLAG
By NC Rock Climber
From The Oven, AKA Phoenix
May 23, 2013
tanuki
No offense, Kyle, but if you have to ask this question it would be best for you to spend a day with a guide before trying to lead and the rap a climb. Again, I am not trying to be a dick here, but if you don't have enough understanding of climbing craft to answer your own questions, then you probably should not try to learn this stuff on your own.

FLAG
By Rob Gordon
From Hollywood, CA
May 23, 2013
Tough Mantle Problem.  Haven't sent yet...
For a second there I thought Kyle might have come up with an ingenious new way to trail a second rope. Kyle seems pretty smart. I bet he would have figured this out if he was actually physically standing at the rock and tying the ropes together at the base of the route. But I think it's always a good rule to have someone who has already done and is proficient in what you are about to do, show you how to do it. That's not always an option, and it's not like he's asking people for advice on how to rap El Cap.

FLAG
By The Stoned Master
Administrator
From Pennsylvania
May 23, 2013
Day Lily.
Rehearse everything if you're not totally confident on the ground before you lead up these longer routes. If you can't visualize the ENTIRE process just take a second and seek an experienced local (in person) and hopefully they can fill in the blanks.

For me if we`re leading on one rope but will need two we: butterfly coil backpack to leader or 2nd, trail the second rope (you already suggested this) one end tied to your harness and the other end (neatly) coiled and free running on the ground (don't clip this second free hanging rope through anything! Not through quick draws, nothing! No need to take chances and complicate), or carry in a backpack (this is a feasible but not the most comfortable to climb with option).

I take it you have a system down regarding becoming "off belay" at the anchors and transitioning to rappel? I just want to make sure you've got that down. If not Craig Leubbens book "mastering basic skills" would be worthwhile for you to purchase, inexpensive if purchased online used at amazon.com

Enjoy!

FLAG
By Kangaru Rat
From Under a Rock
May 23, 2013
Clipping the second rope to your harness and trailing it is your best option, that is least likely to cause problems. You may not want the extra rope weight when climbing though. Two other options to consider:

1) After you’re anchored at the top, pull your lead rope through your protection completely up to you (make sure there’s no knot in the end). Then toss it down, have your belayer tie on the second and haul it up. This has two potential problems in that when you toss down your rope it may not make it to the ground (and subsequently get stuck), and the knot between the two ropes can get stuck on the way up.
2) There is also the Indian Creek trick. Tape the tail of your lead rope to the end of your second rope butt-to-but and pull it up through your protection. You obviously need a strong smooth low-profile tape job for this to work — some climbers seem to have the knack and others seem to mess it up. This is only practical with a straight vertical pitch (typical of I.C.), otherwise the rope will jam or the tape job will fall apart.

Best to avoid problems and trail the second rope on lead unless you’re sure the other options will work.

Hope this helps.

FLAG
By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
May 23, 2013
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.
You could lead on doubles. If you're using a large diameter rope though, this is a pain, but it is an option that hasn't been mentioned yet and a very viable one.

FLAG
 
By Doug Meneke
May 23, 2013
Belay from up-top...and have the 2nd trail the 2nd rope. Get the rope, lower them, then do the double-rope setup.

FLAG
By camhead
From Vandalia, Appalachia
May 23, 2013
You stay away from mah pig!
Kangaru Rat wrote:
2) There is also the Indian Creek trick. Tape the tail of your lead rope to the end of your second rope butt-to-but and pull it up through your protection. You obviously need a strong smooth low-profile tape job for this to work — some climbers seem to have the knack and others seem to mess it up. This is only practical with a straight vertical pitch (typical of I.C.), otherwise the rope will jam or the tape job will fall apart.


This ^^^ I've done this before on even semi-wandering sport pitches, and it works really well. Just make the tape job low-profile. Oh, and don't forget to untape and tie the ropes together before you rap, hehe.

FLAG
By Kyle Bichler
From Cleveland, OH
May 23, 2013
RRG
Thanks to all of you for your feedback! It is much appreciated. I have never heard of the Indian creek method, I'll look into it out of curiosity. I have a lot of experience sport climbing, I've just never attempted a route requiring two ropes for the rap.

Thanks again!

FLAG
By CJC
May 23, 2013
leader trails. for rope management purposes

that tape idea sounds like bullshit to me, esp. for a beginner.

FLAG
By Jeff J
From Bozeman
May 23, 2013
My three way to do so. . .

1. tail the second rope from my harness haul loop.
2. coil the rope in a rop bag and back pack it, or butterfly coil it
3. climb as double ropes

FLAG
By kenr
May 23, 2013
Jake Jones wrote:
You could lead on doubles.

Not sure why people don't do this more in sport climbing generally.

Last month a couple of us did a long easy semi-Trad route with a long approach, so we used a single half-rope to save weight. Indeed we got thru the long route fast, so we had plenty of time in the afternoon and there was some nice half-pitch bolted routes out near that long route.

So my partner tied into both ends of the half-rope and led with double-rope technique. On a less-than-vertical face route pretty near his limit, he found he was rather happy to be pulling out the rope up to make a clip, without increasing the length of his fall on the previous bolt, in case he slipped.

Or is that just an Unsporting way to climb Sport?

Ken

FLAG
By Ryan Williams
Administrator
From London (sort of)
May 23, 2013
El Chorro
The tape trick works, but i've also seen it not work. Guy was stuck up at the top for like an hour while his friends searched for someone who could lead up to him. It was either that, or leave some gear and his rope.

FLAG
By Mike
From Phoenix
May 23, 2013
Doing the jump-across off The Mace.  I never get tired of this climb.  Photo by Wednesday Hugus.
There are a couple of possible methods posted above. Another way is to just leave the second rope on the ground. The leader climbs the pitch, brings up the second, then ties one end of the rope to the anchor. Whichever climber raps first does a single line rap, then ties the second rope to the end of the first. Whichever climber is still up top then pulls up the rope, checks or ties the knot, then double rope raps to the ground. HTH.

FLAG
 
By doligo
May 23, 2013
Jose Cuervo Fruitcups dirtbag style
kenr wrote:
Not sure why people don't do this more in sport climbing generally.


Because you don't want to be boinking or falling on your skinny expensive strand.

The tape method works well - if it fails like Ryan mentioned, the leader can just pull his rope up and lower his end, so the belayer could tie the other rope to it (#1 method that Kangaru Rat mentioned). Happens at the Creek all the time. The only problem with this method would be is if the route is extremely overhanging, it may be hard to clean the draws.

FLAG
By bearbreeder
May 23, 2013
something no one has mentioned yet ...

if yr trailing the rope on the leader ...

when he gets to the top, clip a long sling to a bolt of the anchor and yr belay loop ... pull up the trailing rope and flake it over nicely ... unclip the end at your belay loop and clip that end to the anchor ...

now you have a nice coiled trailing rope ready for the next leader whether block leading or not ... and it works best for handing belays ... for the final pitch yr rope is all nice and neat to throw down as well

it SAVES time by keeping everything neat and clean

this is more for multi of course

;)

FLAG
By willeslinger
From Golden, Colorado
May 23, 2013
I was pretty bummed when they didn't greenlight my "Bourne Identity" style reboot of The Eiger Sanction. This was from the rough draft's first act.
I don't see much reason to lead with the ropes as twins vs just trailing it. But personally, I'd go with a well coiled backpack coil. As long as there's no chimneying involved, you'll be golden and won't have to bother with pulling up the tag line. For extra security, tie the ends of the backpack coil around your waist with a re-threaded figure eight or double fisherman's instead of a square knot.

FLAG
By Syd
May 25, 2013
kenr wrote:
Not sure why people don't do this more in sport climbing generally.


I agree with Ken and Jake. If you're thinking about trailing the rope up on your harness, why not use it ? Safer too, as long as you have a good belayer.

FLAG
By Peter D.
May 26, 2013
Kyle no offense but what you are asking is basic climbing skills 101. Get with an experienced climber or guide to teach you some basic skills. This is not stuff to be learned off the internet.

For what its worth simply trail your tag line off the haul loop of your harness. A back pack coil is cumbersome and will only get in your way while leading. On long trad routes or places like Indian Creek a tag line can allow you to pull up extra gear if you misjudged the crack size and need additional pieces.

Will your belayer or others be following these routes? TR's long routes requires passing the knot with your belay device, again not something to explain on the internet, it isn't difficult just safer to get with someone who can show you this in person.

FLAG
By Kyle Bichler
From Cleveland, OH
May 26, 2013
RRG
Hey Peter. I've learned so much a out climbing and how to safely do this by actively seeking out information from a myriad of sources. I boulder and sport climb and have never encountered a sport route requiring two ropes for rappel. I am also competent enough to extract useful information and implement it into my climbing. Thanks for your concern.

FLAG
By Ryan Nevius
From The Range of Light
May 26, 2013
Mt. Agassiz
Kyle Bichler wrote:
Hey Peter. I've learned so much a out climbing and how to safely do this by actively seeking out information from a myriad of sources. I boulder and sport climb and have never encountered a sport route requiring two ropes for rappel. I am also competent enough to extract useful information and implement it into my climbing. Thanks for your concern.


Kyle, I think a lot of my concern stems from you even considering tying two ropes together and trying to pull a knot through your biners. Rule #1 of climbing...use common sense first.

That said, I disagree that you need to "hire a guide" for something as simple as this. Either (a) tie into both ropes, (b) trail the second rope on your rear haul loop, or (c) backpack coil and wear it. Your choice really depends on the route. Again, use common sense. In other words, if your pitch is going to require chimneying, a backpack coil probably isn't the best option.

FLAG
By Kyle Bichler
From Cleveland, OH
May 26, 2013
RRG
I understand. I would have figured out that the knot would not have gone through the biners if I was actually there. I've just never had to do a two rope rappell and was quickly thinking of possible options. I already know the EDK. I think I will just trail the rope behind me. Hopefully it's not too annoying while I climb. Thanks

FLAG
 
By PatCleary
From Rohnert Park, CA
May 27, 2013
For what it's worth, a double fisherman's tying both ends of my 9.2 Nano together will fit through my BD wiregates. It's not smooth, but it works. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I suspect with some coaxing you'd get the rope up. Mixing that with a 7mm cord made a knot that would occasionally get caught, would pull eventually, and easily fed through the biner. Probably not the trick for 10.5 ropes, or FS mini biners though

Patrick

FLAG
By Christian C
From Arcata, CA
Apr 12, 2014
could you bring a thinner rope up and tag it on the leader? like something the diameter of a half rope or something? when a 70 isn't long enough and you really need the full length of the two 60s? I've never done this before but has anyone else? is the smaller diameter rope strong enough to use for a double rope rap?

FLAG


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 1 of 1.