Question on rappel at Gunks: Three Pines

Hi all,

I have a question that I'm hoping the more experienced Gunks climbers can help with. I led all 3 pitches of Three Pines this past weekend, up to a pair of bolts. I'm fairly sure I was not too far off-route as I distinctively remember passing the "diving board" and a left traverse preceeding a slab to the bolts at the end of the third pitch.

On our rappel, one of my two followers went first on our double 60M ropes. The ropes did not touch the ground (we did have knots at the end); they were probably shy about 20ft. Prior to doing this climb, I had read on MP.com that the climb is a total of 160ft. This also correlates to Dick's book (I excluded the 40ft traverse to the right on the 2nd pitch). If I'm not mistaken, 60M ropes is almost 200ft. Even with the knots used at the end and for tying the ropes together for our rappel, we should have had enough rope.

I also remember passing a total of 3 sets of bolts (including the one we started from at the top), which corresponds to the map/picture in the back of Dick's book. However, the other thing I noticed is that the nearby climb Something Interesting is 200ft (on MP.com) and 230ft (in Dick's). So is Three Pines more than 200ft? Did I add up the pitches incorrectly? And if so, is MP.com's page and/or Dick's book wrong? And last question: With rope elongation, would it have been possible at all to rap once on double ropes?

Thanks for your feedback(s).

PS: For those who may be curious, in order to get to the ground, we switched to another group's rope to rap all the way from the second highest set of bolts.

Umm how did your ropes not reach? I rap that with doubles quite often and have extra rope left. You sure you were on 3 pines? More like 2 pines now?

That's the thing. I expected the doubles to reach the ground. One of my followers went first and she was told to stop by someone else on the ground. As a result, my other follower and I only rapped to another set of bolts so I personally could not see what was going on down further below. So I'm still trying to figure out what possibly happened...

IIRC, 2 doubles don't reach the ground from top of P3. You have to stop at an intermediate anchor which is climber's left from the main rap line. 2 doubles reach the ground from the GT ledge...

So, does that mean MP.com's page is wrong? If I read Dick's book right, all three pitches come up to less than 200ft though, and I'm quite sure 60M is very close to 200ft...

As far as I know, two ropes from the two bolts from P3 of Three Pines won't reach the bottom. There is another set of bolts from P3 of Something Interesting. I believe that set of bolts will reach the bottom.

I don't have the guidebook in front of me, does Dick's book tell you the route ends at the bolts?

BTW, the length for P1 and P2 is more like 130'.

I'll help the brother out with some basic math...

60 M X 3.28(m/ft) = 196.8 Ft

Morgan Patterson wrote:I'll help the brother out with some basic math... 60 M X 3.28(m/ft) = 196.8 Ft

+ stretch and you get at least 200ft. to make it to the ground from the correct ledge and set of anchors. Some assume that you blow off the last pitch and rap off after 2.

divnamite wrote:I don't have the guidebook in front of me, does Dick's book tell you the route ends at the bolts? BTW, the length for P1 and P2 is more like 130'.

It says to move left at the end of the third pitch, scramble up a slab to bolts.

JSH wrote:The Three Pines page says, regarding descent: "three rappels with one rope using bolt anchors." So the MP page is not wrong - I've made sure that Trapps routes give good descent information. It would be very rare, in general, to be able to skip over two intermediate stations, linking 3 raps, just by using two ropes. So that should have set off warning bells in your head. Moreover, very very very few guidebooks get pitch lengths exactly precisely right, and those approximation errors add up over 3 pitches. So you *really* shouldn't rely on addition to guarantee you'll get down in one rappel over multiple pitches ... For 3 Pines (now 2 & 1/2 pines, the middle pine died and is now barely a stump), you still have to rap twice with 2 x 60m ropes. Either one short rap down to the GT then one long to the ground, or the other way (one long to the first bolts at the first pine, then one short to the ground). One last thing, if you're climbing with a less-experienced partner and heading down an unknown rappel - you should also really go first so you can figure out whether you'll need to stop first yourself.

Allow me to clarify: I didn't mean to say that MP.com was wrong about the descent information. I was questioning if the total height of 160ft was right, since two 60M ropes were not enough for a single rappel in our case. I'll admit that going by that 160ft, I had assumed that two 60M ropes would enable us to reach the ground.