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question about tripled runners and racking cams
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By JBaker
From Belmont, MA
Mar 6, 2011
summit of Mt. Washington, NH
Alright so this may sound like a total noob question or maybe I am just missing something, but here is my dilemma...

I really like having my shoulder length runners tripled and on my harness. I find it kinda cumbersome at times to the them off my chest to use them.

However here is my question... How do you rack/clip your cams with the tripled runners without all the extra racking biners? It seems like you would have a wasted biner at every placement. I see the advantage of using slings on your chest with one biner so you just clip the racking biner, but I really want to use the alpine runners so I am not fighting with crap on my chest as much.

Thanks!

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By Brian Snider
From NorCal
Mar 6, 2011
Me
Carry both, but why rack the alpine draws if your just going to extend all the placements. You could put a runner on one biner with a few twists but that makes them harder to use on lead. I like options myself in case I'm in an awkward position ill have a few quick draws on each side plus longer runners over the shoulder as well. Over the shoulder is easier to clean and swap at belays which saves time.

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By Ice4life
From SLC, UT
Mar 6, 2011
GYM
I rack multiple cams on 1 biner. Kind of like nuts, also depends on how many cams your taking up...

I usually got 4 cams per biner with aliens and smaller BD's up to #1. After that the #2 and #3 get there own biner with an alpine draw already clipped to the sling. That way I just unclip plug and clip.

I usually end up taking only 2 biners up with cams so that saves a ton. When you get to a placement, you take the cams off, plug on, unclip and reclip to harness, then clip a draw, simple.

Just don't be reckless and drop your cams because if you drop one you drop 3 others with it...

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By Jesse Davidson
From san diego, ca
Mar 6, 2011
n cascades
I used to do that ^^^^^ but stopped. It was slowing me down too much, because often I don't extend every cam. I climb harder when I'm not wasting time extending every cam and fussing with a 'biner full of cams

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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Mar 6, 2011
OMG, I winz!!!
I just use and leave the extra racking biners. Makes cleaning and placing gear much faster for me. Rack cams with Nano's or Phantoms and it's hardly a weight penalty.

On a big nut heavy pitch I may steal the racking biner from a cam if I'm running short on biners but that's rare. Faster to just have the extra biner for me.

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By shoo
Mar 7, 2011
Rock wars, Red River Gorge
Leave the extra biner. The additional convenience and speed of being able to clip straight into the cam sling right off your harness MASSIVELY outweighs the additional weight of an extra biner in almost all scenarios.

There are those that rack multiple cams on one 'biner, but I find this to be a massive pain in the ass. 1st off, you should know which cam is the right one almost every time, the first time. And in the case where you get it wrong, you will DEFINITELY know which one on your second shot. For nuts, this isn't as much the case, so it's nice to have multiple ones on one 'biner to play with before you take your selected nut off the racking biner. It's also a pain to try to place a cam, especially the bigger ones, with other cams attached to it.

I will, however, occasionally (maybe 10% of the time) rack multiple micro cams on one biner, similar to nuts. This is largely because it's harder to get the right one on your first shot, so it's nice to try out a couple before returning it to your harness. I am also more likely to sling the micro cams out a little more with a trad draw to prevent them from shifting, since even a small shift in micros can make a huge difference in placement quality. Finally, I will often place multiple micros in the same feature, since micro cams are a bit sketchy in my book (I've popped a few in my time, all backed up with other pieces close by). They also weigh a lot less, so it's more convenient.




As for the runners/draws, I typically rack anywhere from 2-10 single length trad draws on my harness, and 0-2 double length slings over my shoulder depending on what I expect the composition of gear to be and how much it may wander. The double length slings are clipped with a 'biner at the ends, so all I need to do to remove it is unclip the 'biner, rather than having to pull it over my shoulder again. I very rarely rack single length slings over my shoulder.

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By Tristan B
From La Crescenta, CA
Mar 7, 2011
Hanging out on Royal Arches
I bring 4 biners each on their own short sling, like about 8 inches long. Like a quick draw but with just 1 biner. So I just grab one of those when I need to extend a cam a little bit. And I have my cams racked on their own biner. I also bring up regular quick draws for nuts.

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By Em Cos
From Boulder, CO
Mar 7, 2011
I single-rack my cams and carry separate draws. Sometimes you clip directly into the cam, and when you don't, I think the extra weight of a few biners is outweighed by the speed and convenience.

I have another question. I don't carry anything over my shoulders, because I am a small person with tiny shoulders and slings just don't stay on. I'm wondering if anyone has another good way to carry double-length slings? I think I see most people just double and throw them over the shoulder. Currently I carry a few tripled and twisted on a biner to keep them out of the way while I climb, but it is pretty slow to get one off to extend pro. Anyone got any good suggestions?

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By Will S
From Joshua Tree
Mar 7, 2011
Em Cos: Triple them twice. i.e., triple them as normal, then repeat the procedure.

You end up with a quickdraw length package that extends the same way as a normal tripled does, just unclip one biner and re-clip it to one of the 6 strands, pull.

No untwisting or shaking loose to get the twist out. In deployment it's as quick as using a regular tripled.

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By Ashley A
From Salt Lake City
Mar 7, 2011
Using some of the longer more flexible quickdraws works just as well in a lot of situations. Also if you have C4 or other cams with a loop at the end, you can just hitch a sling through the loop and use the racking biner to clip to the rope.

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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Mar 7, 2011
Bocan
Ashley A wrote:
Also if you have C4 or other cams with a loop at the end, you can just hitch a sling through the loop and use the racking biner to clip to the rope.


Hmmmm....not to sure about that. I thought I had read some literature on how that was a big no no.

Can someone confirm? I know that it seems right especially with what DMM is doing, but I thought there was a reason NOT to.

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By fossana
From Bishop, CA
Mar 7, 2011
West Overhang
Extending cam slings write-up from BD QC Labs.

Excerpt:
Therefore sling on sling method provided results 61.8% of historical average—or another way to look at it, it reduced the strength of the cam sling by almost 40%.

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By RockinOut
From NY, NY
Mar 7, 2011
Gear
fossana wrote:
Extending cam slings write-up from BD QC Labs. Excerpt: Therefore sling on sling method provided results 61.8% of historical average—or another way to look at it, it reduced the strength of the cam sling by almost 40%.


I thought Ashley was referring to hitching the thumb loop...not the sling on the cam? I`m curious about that as well

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By intl
Mar 7, 2011
Edit: Oops, link was already posted by fossana.

RockinOut wrote:
I thought Ashley was referring to hitching the thumb loop...not the sling on the cam? I`m curious about that as well

Like this?
rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum...

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By brenta
From Boulder, CO
Mar 7, 2011
Cima Margherita and Cima Tosa in the Dolomiti di B...
Scott McMahon wrote:
I know that it seems right especially with what DMM is doing, but I thought there was a reason NOT to.

You are probably thinking of this quote

Black Diamond wrote:
Clipping directly into the wire loop with a carabiner can reduce the strength of the unit by up to 2 kN (450 lbf).

from the Camalot instructions

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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
Mar 7, 2011
Bocan
Can always count on MP to come through like the WU...

So...why don't more folks do that instead of carrying the extra biner and weight? If it's that simple to have a nice expendable draw...maybe just the fact that a girth hitch (or any knot) loses strength?

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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Mar 7, 2011
OMG, I winz!!!
There is another BD link, it describes why they double wrap the nylon sling. I don't have time to hunt it down.

Suffice to say, girth hitching just the thumb loop would be a strength reduction I'm personally not comfortable with on a regular basis. Plus you'll probably tweak your C4 thumb loops pretty fast if you fall on the cams like that. Why is explained in the BD link.

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By Tyler Wick
From Bishop, CA
Mar 7, 2011
ECM
Here's that link:
blackdiamondequipment.com/en-u...

Black Diamond wrote:
Just sewing a loop of 11/16” SuperTape (as was used before) didn’t get us to where we wanted to be strength-wise. Why? Because when the Camalot was loaded during testing, the cable pinches down, and ultimately cut the webbing at loads less than we were happy with (gunnin’ for 14 kN but only getting about 10 kN). Same with similar-width Spectra.

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By intl
Mar 7, 2011
Edit: beaten to the punch again.

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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Mar 8, 2011
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lich...
Luckily it is not a common occurrence, but something to be aware of is the danger if you fell and an over the shoulder sling caught on something. It is potentially deadly. It is not the greatest idea to have things slung around your neck in a dynamic situation. I read a story fairly recently about a young woman dyeing this way. I forgot if it caught on a bolt hanger or rock protrusion.

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By Tyler Wick
From Bishop, CA
Mar 8, 2011
ECM
If you are talking about the accident at the Obelisk last year, it was a gear sling and a cam trigger caught on a knob.. what a freak accident.

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By M Sprague
Administrator
From New England
Mar 8, 2011
Lichen head. Me, with my usual weatherbeaten, lich...
Not to be too macabre, but I also have a friend who participated in a body recovery years back when an iceclimber strangled himself with a sling on Mnt. Katahdin in Maine.

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