Question about transition phase in a block periodization plan, ref: Steve Bechtel
|
Hi! |
|
my thoughts on this are that if you feel that you need the break from hangboarding to prevent injury then do it; in general you should be coming off a hangboard phase healthy but unable to add more resistance, basically reaching a plateau. As you have reached a plateau in finger strength then it is time to move on to the power phase. My interpretation is that you continue with the hangboard sessions once per week during the power phase at the resistance level that you finished off during strength phase (basically at or close to your plateau levels). |
|
I think you could schedule in a deload week (less volume/lower intensity) to give yourself some recovery after 4 weeks. It is pretty typical to do this in weight lifting. |
|
First of all, I really appreciate your replies. You have given me a lot of good feedback. Rui Ferreira wrote:in general you should be coming off a hangboard phase healthy but unable to add more resistance, basically reaching a plateau.I do feel healthy, and have developed no injuries from my strength phase. I only feel somewhat tired in my fingers and elbows, if this clarifies anything. It is more a concern that if I do continue and transition into a similarly hard power phase without any decrease in intensity in between, then I will be facing the possibility of overtraining or injury. I do like SMR's thoughts on deloading for a week, it makes sense and especially so if you take into account that I should retain my maximum strength for up to 30 days without any training. So maybe the question should be; why transition directly into a power phase at all without any deload-period? Are there any downsides to this? Rui Ferreira wrote:My interpretation is that you continue with the hangboard sessions once per week during the power phase at the resistance level that you finished off during strength phase (basically at or close to your plateau levels).Your interpretation is almost correct. Since I do max hangs (3 sets of 5 seconds with 2 minutes rest or each of five grips) I can adjust the resistance level for each set and series of sets based on my own difficulty rating. If I feel that a set of a certain grip is to easy or hard I adjust my resistance level for my next set and so on. I also rate each series of sets on the same difficulty curve and adjust the resistance level for my next workout bases on my performance on my latest workout. When I do continue my hangboarding with one session a week during my power- and power endurance phase I plan to continue this practice. Maybe I stay at my current level, maybe I progress or maybe my strength declines. Either way I aim to get the most out of every hangboard session I do. Rui Ferreira wrote:Limit bouldering should be very hard to execute and you need to add rest between each limit session and hangboarding, perhaps have the hangboard day before the limit boulder day. Climbing during this phase should not at peak performance level either.I'm planning on limiting my Limit Bouldering sessions to no more than 30-40 minutes followed by some density bouldering on easier problems as long as my performance doesn't drop to the point where it affects my technique. I will also schedule my one hangboard session a week with at least 48 hours rest before or after any Limit Bouldering. After considering your feedback here is what I think. I could restructure my training plan and include a one week deloading-period (less volume/lower intensity) between my now finished strength phase and my coming power phase. This also means I will shorten my power phase from four to three weeks. For this week of deloading I will do no hangboarding, only do one bouldering session and two climbing sessions. Normally I do two boulder sessions and one climbing session, and bouldering is for me way more intense. For next week I will do two bouldering sessions but only one Limit Bouldering session, as this is will be the the first week of my power phase. I will also consider doing one hangboard session if I feel I have deloaded enough the week before. I should also say that I plan on doing two Limit Bouldering sessions a week during my power phase, so one such session next week will be a lower volume week as SMR puts it. |
|
Hi Jon, |
|
Thanks for replying, your feedback has been very helpful. SteveBechtel wrote:You can also cycle back the strength load substantially in the power phase since there is a lot of crossover between the strength sessions and limit bouldering. By strength load, are you referring to the amount or duration of training sessions, or the resistance level during those sessions? As I specified in my earlier reply to this post, I aim to get the most out of every strength session I perform during my other phases by focusing on quality for each session. For me this means high intensity, which in turn requires the correct resistance level. Therefor I am inclined to interpret your comment about strength load as meaning amount of sessions and not less resistance and intensity. Am I correct in my interpretation, and if so could you conceivably at some point do only one strength sessions once every other week and still maintain some of your strength gains? Or will anything less than once a week be a waste of climbing time? During my strength phase I started with no added weight and progressed to +10kg for each grip. I don't want to add more than 10kg since a) I don't own more weights, and b) it feels a bit reckless to keep adding more and more weight beyond 10kg. As I see it this leaves me with three options for my continuing hangboard training during my power- and power endurance phases: a) I can aim to only maintain the same resistance level as was my maximum at the end of my strength phase (+10kg for each grip) , b) keep adding the same amount of weight but increase the duration from five to maybe seven or ten seconds, or c) ditch the added weight all together and change to a worse hold on my fingerboard. This also has the benefit of mixing it up a little, which in turn could lead to some smaller gains in strength or at least in grip specific strength. What would you recommend as the best alternative for continued hangboard training during my coming phases? I also have a question about how to structure a limit bouldering session. In one of your articles you state three rules for limit bouldering: 1) Do problems you cant onsight, i.e. hard ones. You should be doing things that take 2 to 5 tries. 2) Do different kinds of problems. Switch wall angles and hold types as much as you can, and look for angles that challenge you more than others. 3) Keep the problems relatively short. We boulder in this session primarily to develop power and this is best done in efforts around 10 seconds. Mark Anderson also states on his blog ( lazyhclimbingclub.wordpress…) some rules regarding limit bouldering, where he says that you should climb problems which focus on one or two really hard moves at your limit, and not 6-8 pretty hard moves. By his video example it looks like he creates his own specific limit boulder problems on his own climbing wall to further isolate these one to two really hard moves and nothing else. This seems like a really specific and measurable approach, but hard to accomplish if only climbing on pre-set boulder problems since these always vary greatly in both number of moves and intensity of each move. My question is, in your opinion, should I structure my own limit boulder problems, or is hard bouldering at my limit on pre-set boulder problems at my gym sufficient? It seems to me that by bouldering at my limit on pre-set problems I can better follow your recommendation about different kinds of problems with different holds and angles, but I will also be sacrificing some of the specific intensity of creating my own limit boulder problems. Climbing on pre-set boulder problems seems much more fun though :) |
|
JohnNorway wrote: should I structure my own limit boulder problems, or is hard climbing at my limit on pre-set boulder problems at my gym more than enough at my level?I'll jump in here with an answer, what I normally do for limit bouldering at the gym is to pick a problem 3 to 4 levels higher than my red-point level and select one or two moves within the problem itself for limit work (usually moves off the ground, so I am not wasting energy to get to the set-up holds). So if I can red-point V7, I will work sequences in V10 or V11 problems. I keep it fresh by selecting three or four sequences from these hard problems as the basis of the session for that day and the rest of the power phase. I also mix it up amongst crimp/sloper problems, compression/opposition, vertical/overhanging, etc. In the event that I succeed in sending the problem sequence I move on to a new one. I give about five to six attempts at each sequence, rest at about 20:1 ratio after each attempt, rest 2:1 in between problems and then move on to the next problem sequence. So if each attempt takes 10 seconds, I will rest at least three to four minutes between attempts. I rest typically 10 minutes between problems. As the power phase tends to be at most four weeks, it is likely that the boulder problems will be in place throughout the course of the phase and not get taken down. |
|
In the Strength month for HB, I train with added weight on decent sized edges (pad size, not jugs). I use primarily 3-4 grips, but rotate them during the year (for Maple training I use open pinch and for the St George season I use 2f pockets). The normal grips are 1/2 crimp and open 3-finger. |
|
JohnNorway wrote: Climbing on pre-set boulder problems seems much more fun though :)I'll admit that limit bouldering is excruciating at best and no fun at all. The fun part comes in the warming up before the limit boulder workout. To warm-up I do four problems at each level in increasing progression from V0 up to two or three levels below redpoint level. This is followed by a 10 minutes rest and then another session of 30 minutes doing fun problems at or near red-point. Once this is over I rest another 15 minutes and then proceed to the limit bouldering. The overall session takes about 2 to 2.5 hours, but the actual climbing time is much less than overall. |
|
Great explanations above, thanks you two! |
|
this is an interesting thread, thanks to everybody for their input. i have been basically cycling back and forth between strength (bouldering pyramid warmups, HB for main workout) and power (bouldering warmups, with main workouts of limit bouldering, campusing, or system board). for the most part i have liked it and had pretty good success. |
|
Alot of good feedback here guys! |
|
Slim, |
|
Hi again! SMR wrote:In the power month when I add in limit bouldering, I change my hang-boarding to a the ladder method Steve outlines in his book (3-6-9 sec on 30sec clock)with bodyweight. I do 2 sessions in 1-2 weeks of power and 1 session in week 3-4. When trying to redpoint, I continue to HB 1 time per week. I have found this alternating HB routine is beneficial for me b/c it keeps me hang-boarding. In my experience and per Steve's advice, I decided to keep hang-boarding at least 1/week year round.Do you add sets to add volume to your hangboard ladder-routine during your power phase, or do you just maintain the same amount of load (bodyweight) and sets throughout all your hangboard sessions when aiming for maintaining strength rather than building strength? Per SMR and Steve's recommendations I read up on the 3-6-9 Hangboard Ladder Training ( climbstrong.com/articles/20…). Although I find it very interesting I'm having a hard time finding an explanation for why this routine is more beneficial for maintaining maximum strength than my regular hangboard routine where I do 3 sets of maximum hangs for 5-10 seconds with 2-3 minutes rest between sets. It seems logical to me that if your goal is to maintain maximum strength you should do a maximum strength exercise. By my understanding the 3-6-9 ladder is not an maximum strength exercise, but more of a strength endurance exercise. Maybe this just falls under the apparently old repeaters vs maximum hangs discussion which nobody seems to agree upon. I am surely missing something here, and would appreciate any guidance given. Also, one of the things I found interesting with Steve's article is the aspect of adding volume by adding sets rather than adding weight. After doing some more research I found that Eva Lopez, which has greatly influenced my hangboard training, also advocate adding sets as an alternative to adding weight. Her training protocol states that when training on a minimum sized edge you should deadhang for 5-10 seconds with a margin of failure (effort level she calls it) of 1-3 seconds, and then increase the number og sets for each week do ensure progress. I also found it interesting that her focus on margin of failure, in the same way as Steve's article, advocate sub maximal work when training for isometric strength. Given all this, is there any compelling reason for why I shouldn't continue with my already established hangboard routine (3 sets x 5-10 sec hang, 2-3min rest between sets), but with new and worse holds to ditch any need for added weight, and then if needed add number of sets to increase volume? |
|
When I do the 3-6-9 HB session, this follows an hour of limit bouldering or hard power drills. There is no way I could do max hangs after this. |
|
I also wanted to comment on what Steve said and I agree that a well- designed limit session can maintain the strength. My challenge is finding preset boulder problems comprised of the variety of holds I want to train. Our gym setters have a preference for pinches and slopers. So the hangbaording (3-6-9) fills in what I perceive to be gaps. |
|
SMR wrote:When I do the 3-6-9 HB session, this follows an hour of limit bouldering or hard power drillsBut if you do your 3-6-9 hangboarding after limit bouldering or hard power drills, are you then training to maintain your maximum strength or are you training your strength endurance? As I understand it you need to be training at about 90% of your maximum force to gain strength, and I have hard time seeing how that can be the case at the end of a hard session of limit bouldering or similar. I also noted that you add sets for each week, and this leads me to think that you are experiencing some gains by this, or you would not be able to add sets at all by my logic. But are these gains in your opinion related to strength endurance, or are your maximum strength increasing during your power phase? I hope your not taking this as a criticism of your training, if so I am sorry. I am just trying to understand as much as possible about training for climbing, and I find this kind of discussion really interesting. |
|
I am not taking this as a critism, I completely enjoy discussing training and have many of the same questions. The Russians would disagree with the 90%. A majority of their training was around 75-80%. The Bulgarians train with the heavier loads. |
|
SMR wrote:The Russians would disagree with the 90%. A majority of their training was around 75-80%. The Bulgarians train with the heavier loads.That is very interesting. I didn't know that. Can I assume there isn't any definitive scientific research on which of these are the "most" correct, since the climbing community seems torn between these two approaches (repeaters vs max hangs)? You would think that 'how to train for maximum strength' in many athletic sports would be prioritized research. Must be a tricky problem to solve I guess. SMR wrote:2nd handboard cycle I did was Eva Lopez. Without the transgression board, I found this routine less than optimal esp with the bodyweight hang portion. She recommends changing hold size to optimize EL. I didn't have the right board to do this well (IMO).I definitely see how that could be difficult yes. When I did my first hangboard-cycle I was weak enough that I could barely hang for 10 seconds from the worst four finger crimp on my Beastmaker 2000. My progression that cycle was to actually attain the 3 second effort level to the 10 second hangs. My second hangboard-cycle I met the same problem as you with no lesser hold size to optimize EL. I "solved" this by combining her two approaches; maximum added weight and minimum sized edge, and did 3 sets of 5 seconds with maximum added weight on a descent sized edge before I did another 3 sets of 10 seconds on the minimum sized edge. The intensity of the first 3 sets with added weight helped optimize the effort level for the last 3 sets. Wether or not this was a good combination or not I have no idea. It did make me stronger in the end, so I guess it was a success. Although, maybe all the bouldering I did in the same period may have been a bigger contribution than I thought at that time. My latest and third hangboard cycle has been my most successful yet. Since I could not progress to a lesser hold and did not feel comfortable adding weight to the smallest crimp on my fingerboard, I decided to split my fingers into pairs and train them separately. I chose the following grips for this hangboard cycle; Front 2, Back 2, Middle 2, 4 Finger Crimp and 4 Finger Sloper. I chose the hold on my fingerboard that allowed for 3 sets of 5 second hangs. As I have mentioned earlier in this post, I then added 2,5kg each week as long as my difficulty rating of each series of hangs wasn't to high. That said I never had to not add the specified amount of added weight for each week, and by the end of my four week cycle I had progressed to +10kg for all gips. Taking into account my bodyweight of 62kg, that is an increase of about 16% of the total amount of load put on my fingers. I am not naive enough to translate that into 16% increase in finger strength, but it is something gained. SMR wrote:If you are interested, I can update you after round 6 since I am currently in the power 3-6-9 part. Also, I feel like for me, with the LB I am doing and the weekends projects the 3-6-9 creates a stimulus without overloading/overtraining.I would be very interested in that. After some consideration of your posts I do think I see some of the benefits of the 3-6-9 ladder or pyramid training in general, regardless of wether or not it is the best way of gaining/maintaining maximum strength. 1) Since you do not add weight but sets, you avoid increasing the load but instead increase the volume. This seems to me as an approach less prone to injuries as well as more 'gentle' on the fingers. This is very important to me, especially since I am more prone to injuries when I train my fingers in pairs. Also, I did start this post due to concerns about possible injuries. 2) As both you and Steve Bechtel point out, Limit Bouldering-sessions will help greatly with maintaining my current finger strength level if done properly (and I plan to do them properly). I also see your logic behind the 3-6-9 ladder 'filling the gap' potentially left open by the limit bouldering. 3) It serves as a fresh change of pace in my training, and will probably help me keep motivated throughout my power phase. In reality I do not need motivation to complete training goals, I am that disciplined when it comes to training, but motivation always makes training way more fun! 4) Throwing all these things aside; I have now read and written so much about Steve's ladder routine that my curiosity would not allow me NOT to try it as soon as possible. |
|
I am making a very general statement about Russians vs Bulgarians training method. Let me find the references (I think it was Poluquin, maybe at strongfirst.com). Someone will probably blast me for my over-simplification of 2 very refined, very successful training programs that produced numerous elite athletes. |
|
SMR wrote:My base argument is there are many ways to develop max strength: look at gymnasts/aerialists who get very strong via bodyweight exercises. And numerous rock climbers get strong enough to redpoint 5.13/5.14 with just climbing (ie bodyweight only).I totally agree with you, and I think that to say that either repeaters OR maximum hangs are the only way of gaining maximum strength would be wrong. As you say, there are many examples of both low and high level climbers experiencing strength gains with each of these training protocols. Also, even if one of these two at some points proves to be the best training protocol for gaining maximum finger strength, how much 'better' would it actually be. Theoretically you could speculate that by following the best protocol you would reach maximum strength based on your current level, and by following the second best protocol you would reach 90-95% of that same maximum strength. In sport climbing atleast, I think it would be fairly easy to compensate for those extra 5-10% if needed. In addition, even if maximum hangs should be proven to be the best max strength-protocol, maybe the added benefits related to endurance as a whole make repeaters the desired protocol for most climbers. OR maybe five years from now every periodic training plan will include both repeaters and maximum hangs, as the combination of these two has been proven to yield the best strength gains. I'm looking forward to finding out. |