Put the following things in order (JT 5.11's)

Rank the following in order of difficulty (my order is below). This is inspired by a post by Kris Solem regarding Black President and the compared routes are his suggestions. Note these are lead ratings, as my TR ratings would likely be different:

Crime of the Century
Natural Selection *
Importance of Being Ernest *
Black President
Bendix Claws *
Coarse and buggy
Winds of Woopee

Note that I also think 5.10+ -> 5.11- is one of the "compression" areas, where people tend to either want to sandbag their FA's (for whatever reasons) or justify their sends.

The *'s indicate routes that I think putting in pro/fear modify the rating.

Well, not sure about the rest but I think Coarse and Buggy is WAY easier than Bendix Claws.

Bendix Claws (on TR) felt somewhat desparate, while Coarse and Buggy (on lead) felt quite reasonable.

Andy Laakmann wrote:Well, not sure about the rest but I think Coarse and Buggy is WAY easier than Bendix Claws. Bendix Claws (on TR) felt somewhat desparate, while Coarse and Buggy (on lead) felt quite reasonable.

Which part on Bendix? The slab or just after, when you have to fiddle in gear or suck it up past?

I feel the gear on Bendix is a bit tricky and the climbing is less straight forward than Coarse and Buggy.

I did Bendix first try on TR then had to come back TR again to suss the gear and finally lead it.

I did C&B Onsight on lead.

My list of J-Tree 11's since I haven't done most of Murf's.

Heart of Darkness (easy gear but tight jams)
Course and Buggy (good gear and a rest before the final crux)
Bendix Claws (tricky to place gear and technical)
Left Ski Track (bad gear, insecure climbing but a short crux)
Hot Rocks (good gear but quite technical movement)

Cheers,

Luke

Easiest to hardest:

1.Crime of the Century
2.Importance of Being Ernest
3. (TIE) Black President,Winds of Woopee
4.Coarse and buggy
5.Bendix Claws

Never been on Natural Selection. These are hard to compare because the styles are so different and a few I'd rate equally...BP, WofW, C&B.

Ernest is really all about the gear and keeping your head screwed on, BP is mostly cruiser with a height dependent move middle, and a little pullin at the end. Swept Away feels like more of a companion piece to BP at the rating with the one tech sequence, a few pulls, a little slabbin, and alot of cruisin.

WofW has the wide pod funk at the first move, a little 1.25" move over the bulge and then it's hand size dependent, it was loose fist for me and felt insecure and slow but reasonable, and you can mostly sew up the whole route. C&B always feels desperate in the stemming to me 'cause I'm not flexbile that way, after the initial stemming not bad and you can sew the whole thing up, there are rests, etc.

Bendix seems in a different class from the rest of these, the face move is awkward and not easy to read but comes right off the ground with a bolt right there, but the rest is kinda pumpy, the gear is a little fiddly and strenuous to place.

It would be interesting to see where people think R. Banana would go in there. Red Snapper would be another interesting one.

Of course you could do the same deal with the 10d's. From soft touch like Boortemus and Rubicon through things like Semi-Tough, Morning Thunder, and Digital Watch (giant sandbag, that thing).

I put Coarse and Buggy toward toward the top as it's the only one I've only done once (oddly since its so close to the road). I can stem pretty well, so the bottom wasn't too bad. I almost blew the top and remember it being hard.

Like Wil says the Face Move on Bendix Claws is just a little awkward. Then you need to fiddle in good gear, taking care not to take up key jams and go for it.

WoW tops the list for me, the bottom is fiendishly hard to figure out. The crux .75 section sucks for my mitts, as opposed to the top section, which isn't that bad.

R. Banana isn't too bad for me, I just have to be careful in the sequence.

Red Snapper is the only one of these I backed off of the lead in total frustration. I had worn a hole in my finger as I recall and decided the whole route was stupid. After following it, I went over to Soviet Union and onsited it. Evidently, for me Red Snapper is harder than all of these.

One of the cool things about climbing is that everyone's experience is unique, so the rating thing is pretty subjective. My experience is that Importance of Being Earnest and Black President are about a tie despite their difference in length, which probably makes BP a notch harder especially as one pitch. BITD I always did this as 2 pitches which does make the top out easier. I think Bendix Claws and Winds of Whoopee are the harder one's on the list with the others somewhere in between but certainly a notch above BP in difficulty.

Anyone want to nominate some Josh .10d's that have harder moves than Black President?

For me, maybe, Crescent Wrench and Semi Tough.

carry on...

Kris Solem wrote:Anyone want to nominate some Josh .10d's that have harder moves than Black President?

Raked Over the Coles
Digital Watch
Semi Tough
Crescent Wrench
Maneater
One Armed Giant
Squatters Right

Might not be "fair" to put the wide stuff in there, but anyway...
You could bump it down to 10c's that have harder moves than Black Pres and get a few too:

Take It For Granite (the one at comic book)
OKelley's
Clean and Jerk
Point of No Return

Will S wrote: Raked Over the Coles Digital Watch Semi Tough Crescent Wrench Maneater One Armed Giant Squatters Right Might not be "fair" to put the wide stuff in there, but anyway... You could bump it down to 10c's that have harder moves than Black Pres and get a few too: Take It For Granite (the one at comic book) OKelley's Clean and Jerk Point of No Return

Raked Over the Coles might be harder than BP.
I've always considered Crescent Wrench a "protection problem" as it is significantly easier as a TR.
Semi Tough gets progressively easier, and is short, I don't think its harder than BP.
Is Take It For Granite the one with shitty small nuts at the crux? I just remember being pretty scared..
I think Digital Watch is rated .11a or b in Bartlett. But its short, and a 1 or 2 move wonder.

I'm firmly in the O'Kelley's isn't .10c camp.
I've never thought of C&J as being super hard either. Oddly, I've fallen on Bearded Cabbage a bunch of times, but never on C&J.

If you want to go the OW way, you can probably come up with .10b's harder than BP.

If I had to arrange them (I took the OW's out), it might look like this. But when I do it with these many routes, it seems pretty arbitrary:

C&J
Semi Tough
Heart of Darkness
Crime of the Century
Natural Selection *
Crescent Wrench
Importance of Being Ernest *
Black President
Digital Watch
Right Banana
Bendix Claws *
Coarse and Buggy
Soviet Union
Red Snapper
Hot Rocks
Winds of Woopee

murf, you crack me up!

I thought that bendix claws was the hardest of the lot (original list)to lead, with Importance of Being Ernest the easiest.

Have not done Black President, I guess this is the year for it!

JT 5.11s -- Seems like a lot of 5.10s on this list.

C&J (Isn't this is 5.9+?)
Semi Tough (10c/d)
Importance of Being Ernest (10c/d)
Heart of Darkness (10d)
Crime of the Century (10d)
Raked Over The Coles (10d/11a)
Natural Selection *
Black President (10d/11a)
Coarse and Buggy (11a)
Winds of Woopee (11a)
Right Banana (11a)
Bendix Claws *
Soviet Union
Hot Rocks (11b++)

Hot Rocks is by far harder than anything on this list. Bendix Claws is easy in comparision.

Will S wrote: Raked Over the Coles Digital Watch Semi Tough Crescent Wrench Maneater One Armed Giant Squatters Right Might not be "fair" to put the wide stuff in there, but anyway... You could bump it down to 10c's that have harder moves than Black Pres and get a few too: Take It For Granite (the one at comic book) OKelley's Clean and Jerk Point of No Return

Hmm. About the only one of those (that I've done at least) that I'd agree with is Semi Tough, but I thought it was upgraded to an .11a, so what do I know.

I don't think any of the .10cs you mention (never done Point of No Return) is harder. BD has a reputation for having moves that are obvious or really weird and height dependent. I bailed off BD but had no real problems with the others (non wide stuff) on your list.

All about preferences I suppose.

Posted over on Supertopo:

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…

How does Left Ski Track fall into this list?

Murf wrote: Is Take It For Granite the one with shitty small nuts at the crux? I just remember being pretty scared..

Yep, that's the one. Thin crack opening to hands to a giant ledge, move over left and do another 15' of crack to the top.

Murf wrote: I've never thought of C&J as being super hard either. Oddly, I've fallen on Bearded Cabbage a bunch of times, but never on C&J.

C&J is just a one move wonder, but it seems much harder now than it did about 10 years ago. The bottom is so polished there is basically no foothold for the big move, and I'm only 5'9" and have to huck that move. If you're tall, different story, thing probably feels like 5.9, to me it's .11-.

randy - I thought that Hot Rock was no doubt cruxier, but somewhat casual for leading. Bendix Claws, to me, had insecure stances for laying gear,and sustainedlyly insecure too!

I just thought that the topic was on 10+/11- routes.

Spiderline is also a damn hard lead at 5.11b++++

RobM wrote: Spiderline is also a damn hard lead at 5.11b++++

And how!

I'm not a local by any means, but here's my list, compiled over a few trips to the desert.

Easiest to hardest:

O'Kelley's Crack (5.11a?)
Heart of Darkness
Left Ski Track
Bendix Claws
Jumping Jack Crack
Coarse and Buggy
Wangerbanger
Spider Line

I found Coarse and Buggy to be hard, probably in part because I had just spent some time on Scary Monsters and my stemming muscles were toast. Wangerbanger was a battle, but my wife seconded easily, jamming her hands securely in that .75 camalot crack. Argh.

Spider Line is by far the hardest 11 I've done at Josh because it's just so steep and stemmy.

7 year bump....spray on