proposing (yet another) new ethics rule - Not Leaving More Ropes than Climbers Up

I have noticed a recent rash of this behavior and I find it really obnoxious and frankly, rude.

The problem I am having is when a group of climbers leave up multiple ropes that they are not using, thus blocking the route for the rest of us. Just yesterday I was at a very small crag (about 10 routes, both sport and trad) and there was a group of 4 climbers there who had 3 top ropes set up, 2 of them were over trad routes. This pretty effectively blocked the majority of the routes on that face. Earlier in the week, I saw a group of four climbers (different group, different crag) doing the exact same thing, 3 top ropes set up. Same crag, same day, different group, left quickdraws on the entire route. I don't know who the gear belonged to, but leaving them like that makes me tempted to use them...just to make a point.

What I would like to propose is, if you are not actively on that route and you are not the only group on the crag, take your gear off of it. You are blocking routes other people might want to be on and I am about to start climbing on your rope if you just leave it there.

Yes, I know I could just ask them to pull it, and you better believe I will, but I don't think that should be necessary. If you aren't on the route, get all of your gear off of it please.

Ok - flame on everyone ;-)

These are people who grew up never having to care about their impact on others. I hates it.

Taking a page out of Elena's book huh? Not nice.

Have you tried talking to the other party? I know it's scary but they're probably nice and reasonable people. Most likely they will let you use their TR or let you pull the rope and lead it yourself. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with another group clipping their draws on lead. That's what they are for right? As for the argument that draws on the route prohibit the leader from "experiencing the route as it should be", puuhhhlease, it's a sport route, thank them for hanging the draws.

Daniel Winder wrote:Taking a page out of Elena's book huh? Not nice. Have you tried talking to the other party? I know it's scary but they're probably nice and reasonable people. Most likely they will let you use their TR or let you pull the rope and lead it yourself. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with another group clipping their draws on lead. That's what they are for right? As for the argument that draws on the route prohibit the leader from "experiencing the route as it should be", puuhhhlease, it's a sport route, thank them for hanging the draws.

Are you calling me Eleanor? If you read all the way through my post, I do ask them to pull their rope, but I think it is unnecessary that I should have to do so. When you are at a crowded crag or a predominantly trad crag, I am of the opinion that it is rude to leave your gear all over the the route. And while I did not make the argument that leaving the draws on "prohibits the leader from experiencing the route as it should be", it kind of does. If I want to clip the draws myself, I don't need to thank someone for getting in my way and leaving their gear all over the place. I'll just assume that you like randoms taking whippers on your gear.

Daniel Winder wrote:Taking a page out of Elena's book huh? Not nice. Have you tried talking to the other party? I know it's scary but they're probably nice and reasonable people. Most likely they will let you use their TR or let you pull the rope and lead it yourself. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with another group clipping their draws on lead. That's what they are for right? As for the argument that draws on the route prohibit the leader from "experiencing the route as it should be", puuhhhlease, it's a sport route, thank them for hanging the draws.

You mean Eleanor???

My issue with this is you are still acting in a way that comes off as completely oblivious to others. If I walk up on a crag and see 3 ropes hung I am not even going to consider those routes since they look like people are on them. Is it really my responsibility to seek out and discuss these parties plans? Do I really need to sit around for 10 minutes waiting to see if and who is getting on what and when??

Also I do believe the OP mentioned several Trad routes being set up as top ropes, not sport routes exclusively. Not to mention far more top ropes set up than the party could ever use with the number of people. This once again is just inconsiderate, it seems like you are claiming those routes, even if you "let me" pull your rope down after I have to ask you.

It seems like less effort for all parties involved for people to simply put up the routes they are climbing on currently and take them down when they are done and moving on to the next.

But that is probably just my green license plate speaking. ;)

I agree that it is rude to take over a crag however, having the ability to go over and ask other climbers if you can either run a lap on their top rope or pull their rope and lead it yourself is pretty easy. If someone leaves a top-rope up unattended then it is perfectly OK to pull the rope, lead it, and put their anchor and rope together to the side. Then you don't have to go home and rant about trivial things on the internet.

bradyk wrote:I agree that it is rude to take over a crag however, having the ability to go over and ask other climbers if you can either run a lap on their top rope or pull their rope and lead it yourself is pretty easy. If someone leaves a top-rope up unattended then it is perfectly OK to pull the rope, lead it, and put their anchor and rope together to the side. Then you don't have to go home and rant about trivial things on the internet.

Please read the end of my post. Yes, I can ask people to pull their ropes, but leaving them up seems like they are staking a claim, at ChefMattThaner suggests. I think when you have more ropes up than you could be climbing at once, you are negatively impacting the other individuals trying to use the crag. I don't know, I just have the crazy idea that you should clean up after yourself and be self aware enough to realize that other parties may want that route too.

I thought being able to rant about trivial things was the whole point of the internet?

This should probably be moved to your regional forum.

I agree with you though, people forget these things sometimes and it can be a bit of an irritation. Sadly, people will always need to be reminded. Ultimately everyone's at the crag to have a good time so I wouldn't sweat it too much (climbers are pretty approachable folks).

There's a bigger principle involved here-
all gang topropers should be shot on sight. Immediately, no prisoners.

@ the OP- given how much Beth and Matt post on MP, I'm surprised a brief face to face conversation would be so overwhelming.

Mark I already have left an open door invitation for you to come talk about some of our differences in opinion at my restaurant.

Face to face is my preferred method of educating others.

ChefMattThaner wrote:Mark I already have left an open door invitation for you to come talk about some of our differences in opinion at my restaurant. Face to face is my preferred method of educating others.

Probably not practical, kind of far from home for me, but maybe at the crag sometime.

I'm serious (sort of) about TRs though, esp at the Gunks.

Mark E Dixon wrote: Probably not practical, kind of far from home for me, but maybe at the crag sometime. I'm serious (sort of) about TRs though, esp at the Gunks.

Well see, we don't disagree on everything!

Hello everybody *applause* ...I know , I know...
Anyway, when I see ropes idling at the crag not only do I see free tr laps potential , but also interim belayer potential! With large groups there are usually free people just idling and are willing to belay you on a few laps, why not? Especially if you let them touch your cams. Everybody is happy ...and they get to tell stories how they met a "real climber"..right?

leon wrote:Hello everybody *applause* ...I know , I know... Anyway, when I see ropes idling at the crag not only do I see free tr laps potential , but also interim belayer potential! With large groups there are usually free people just idling and are willing to belay you on a few laps, why not? Especially if you let them touch your cams. Everybody is happy ...and they get to tell stories how they met a "real climber"..right?

Elena do you have a home electroshock set up in that van of yours?

All the 'real climbers' do.

Talking about vans...Dude, do you know somebody in central coast Cali who owns a piece of land we can park our van on for free?

leon wrote:Talking about vans...Dude, do you know somebody in central coast Cali who owns a piece of land we can park our van on for free?

You could try the parking lot here-
31625 Highway 101
Soledad, CA 93960
(831) 678-5500

Otherwise, no, don't know anyone. Are you diving? Or on assignment?

Yeah TR ganging blows but grow up and talk to the people, maybe even educate them why it's a dick move.

Mark E Dixon wrote: You could try the parking lot here- 31625 Highway 101 Soledad, CA 93960 (831) 678-5500 Otherwise, no, don't know anyone. Are you diving? Or on assignment?

Sweet! Thanx man!
On an assignment for 3 months but may stay for 6. Super psyched about diving too! The goal is to transition to dry before we head out to Washington for winter.

Mark E Dixon wrote: You could try the parking lot here- 31625 Highway 101 Soledad, CA 93960 (831) 678-5500 Otherwise, no, don't know anyone. Are you diving? Or on assignment?

Yeah, they have showers and beds at taxpayer's expense. This is a four-star facility.

I'm with you Beth. Common curtesy and sense are a thing of the past.

Yo, I AM the taxpayer. Middle class, baby. So a little bit of mooching off the system is what I am entitled to. Nope, no guilt here!