Mountain Project Logo

Proper belay technique for the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay.

Original Post
Orphaned · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 11,560

I'd like to start a discussion of proper belay technique with the Mammut Alpine Smart Belay. I own both the large and smaller model and use them almost exclusively indoors and outdoors. I'm also one that likes to review and make sure belay technique is safe with others belaying me, including my own when I belay. Recently I just gave a climbing partner a ton of shit for her belay technique with this device, which in hind sight was way overly harsh which I regret, but the gist of the issue is that had she been using a non-locking belay device, she would have dropped myself or other people she was belaying with this technique. Even though this has not happened... yet, as she has not been using a non-locking belay device. I find there is no point in pushing luck.

What she is doing is letting go of the brake strand each time she is taking up slack to move her hand back up to the rest position. And also leaving the brake open after giving slack for a clip and not closing it until the clip is made by the climber on sport lead. The former was also being done with the gym Grigri's. This was not what I taught her, the gym staff never said anything over several months time, and I kick myself for not periodically checking her belay technique to make sure it is still what I taught. Thankfully another climbing partner of mine noticed what she was doing while I was climbing such that I could address this.

So low and behold, in my quest to figure out what Mammut's official position is about the proper way to use this device I reviewed their video on their web site and found the guy doing this exact technique when taking up slack on bottom belay. He even does it with lowering a climber.

youtube.com/watch?v=N2iqKWp…

I'm honestly horrified to see this! You mean to tell me that Mammut wants people to learn terrible and unsafe belay techniques that don't transfer safely over to other non-locking belay devices? Especially seeing as how Mammut does indeed sell non-locking belay devices that would require good belay technique to use safely. The gym I goto doesn't even teach people to belay like this on their Grigri's. One hand is always firmly gripping the brake strand below the device.

For myself, I belay and take up slack on bottom belay with this device as if it was a non-locking belay device. Such that there is always at least one hand firmly gripping the brake strand below, or just below the device. And this is how I show other climbers to use it. Because I know that if I have to for some reason use a non-locking belay device, like an ATC (which is what I learned on a few years back), or even use a Munter Hitch if I drop my belay device, I need to already have good and thusly safe belay technique to use it well and not injure or kill the climber.

My thought is to get her to re-learn to bottom belay at the gym on my non-locking ATC with someone on backup on the brake strand until she gets the hang of it, to get her used to a safe belay technique. I've certainly read enough posts here on this forum to know that climbers who never learn to bottom belay on a non-locking belay device tend to have very sloppy and unforgiving belay technique. I don't want this, and I won't choose to climb with people who have unsafe belay technique, auto locking belay device, or especially if not.

This may sound kind of rant like. But I am big on reducing risk in climbing. Such that I've gotten to the point where I keep reminding the people I climb with that I'm capable of mistakes too regardless of whatever experience I have. I want to know if I'm doing something that is not safe so I can correct it. We all want to live to climb again.

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated.

ROC · · Denver, CO · Joined Feb 2003 · Points: 155

Just curious myself and found this information booklet from Mammut about the Apline Smart:

mammut.ch/images/Smart+Alpi…

They specifically state, "It is true that the Smart Alpine is designed to exert an enormous braking effect on the rope, virtually locking it –
however, you must always keep the braking hand on the brake line. This is because the braking effect of the Smart Alpine depends on two important factors: the carabiner and the rope. If the wrong combination of carabiner and rope is used, the braking effect is much lower, and the rope will continue to pass through the device. This is why the braking hand must always grasp the brake line, allowing the rope to be locked if necessary with a small amount of force." (bottom of page 6, top of page 7).

I would venture that you are correct in your assertion that standard belay technique should be used with this device as it is not an auto-locking device. I know if would give me peace of mind if my belayer always kept their hand on the break rope regardless of the device. I find it best to develop good climbing habits that can be used in a variety of situations. That way you can rely on muscle memory to use each device correctly and not have to think, oh, I'm belaying with device x, I should do things differently. Muscle memory will serve you well at the end of a long day when it's getting dark and the weather is moving in.

I would say that video is a HUGE miss on Mammut's part.

nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525

I don't see where in that video you see him removing his hand from the brake strand. Loosening your grip to slide the rope through is not the same as letting go entirely, and in my opinion and experience it is safe. It is extremely easy to simple close your grip and catch a fall. ATC, GriGri or otherwise. If taking in large amounts of slack at a time it can be unwieldy and in that case it is important to bring your other hand down to back yourself up while sliding your hand. That said it is important with assisted locking devices to not accidentally prevent the device from locking (holding down the cam on a GriGri or pulling up on the lever of the Smart).

nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525
Climb for joy wrote:Their should always be at least one hand firmly gripping the brake strand. None of this loosely encircling the brake line crap. That just creates poor and unsafe belay habits when you have to use a non-locking belay device.
Just imagine what you do when you give out slack on an ATC (lead belay). You're not bringing your left (non-brake) hand down every time you slide your brake hand. It's loosely encircling the brake strand, ready to clamp down in case of a fall. (Or maybe you do lead belay in this hyper-careful method, in which case your leader must need to climb really damn slow).
ROC · · Denver, CO · Joined Feb 2003 · Points: 155

Loosening your break hand and sliding it up the rope is considered letting go. Proper belay technique uses your other hand to control the break while you slide your break hand back up towards the device. This method will work with any device on the market and is taught by AMGA, PCIA and virtually any gym across the country.

nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525
ROC wrote:Loosening your break hand and sliding it up the rope is considered letting go. Proper belay technique uses your other hand to control the break while you slide your break hand back up towards the device. This method will work with any device on the market and is taught by AMGA, PCIA and virtually any gym across the country.
Do you lead belay like this with an ATC?
youtube.com/watch?v=YvEQrKO…
If not I'm curious how you do it without sliding your brake hand.
lukeweiss · · St. Johnsbury, VT · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 30

Much ado about nothing. You always keep your hand on the rope, sliding up for lead belaying Same as an atc. I use the alpine smart, and it's breaking strength is pretty bomber, don't let that disclaimer fool you.
it's biggest weakness is paying out rope when the leader is really fast, like when they get to a snow field after an ice bulge, etc. It is exhausting.

ROC · · Denver, CO · Joined Feb 2003 · Points: 155

Nathanael you bring up a good point. What's the real difference here? Yes, this is standard lead belay technique shown in the video. The difference is whether you are taking in rope or feeding it out. Feeding rope you would pay it out as shown in the video. Taking slack in it is typical to use the break under slide technique as discussed above. You can see the woman in the video use this as she takes up slack briefly at 2:50.

You could certainly make the argument that the movement is virtually the same with both taking in and feeding out slack. The idea is to have full control (gripping the rope) of the break strand as much as possible when belaying. Lead belaying requires you to feed rope quickly so there is not an efficient way to do this without simply sliding your break hand.

Jonathan Little · · Arlington, WA · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 0

I'm with Nathaniel. You can belay properly sliding your hand, similar to how you lead belay but backwards. Most important is that you are attentive to your leader and don't get distracted. Assuredly lead falls are harder to catch that top rope falls.
Of course there are variations in belay technique. This certainly isn't something I'd correct if someone were doing it.

You say that you belay sliding your hand in lead situations because of "efficiency". But if it's something you'd correct someone for using while taking in slack, I don't think efficiency would be a good enough argument to justify it in lead situations. If that makes sense.

Now I once saw someone in the gym holding both hands on the load end of the rope above a grigri while his climber was hanging there (nothing on the brake side). THAT is in urgent need of correcting.

nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525

All said I agree that BUS (Brake; Under; Slide) is the ideal technique to teach for toprope belay, and it is the technique I use most of the time. When taking in a lot of slack quickly, the BUS technique makes sure you don't lose track of the brake strand. But for taking in small handfuls at a time it's fine to just slide your hand up. It's just going so far as to say something needs to be a certain way ALWAYS or NEVER is rarely true.

lukeweiss · · St. Johnsbury, VT · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 30

Which is exactly how you belay tr climbers on the alpine smart (BUS)

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

Sliding the brake hand up or down the rope has been the standard technique since belaying was first invented. The Mammut video is perfectly o.k.

redlude97 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 5
Climb for joy wrote: This! As does the gym I goto which the owners and some of the gym staff are certified by these orginizations. I even tell people that I climb with not to practice improper belay technique taking up huge amounts of slack prior to the climb before anyone is officially on belay. No point in somehow giving yourself subconscious permission to use dangerous belay technique by accident because you do it some times. Good and thusly safe belay technique is a constant practice, and it sometimes needs adjustment via feedback from other climbers as it's not always easy to notice when we get used to what we are doing. Feeding slack on both the Alpine Smart Belay and a non-locking belay device, yes, the brake strand has to slide in your hand, particularly if you are doing more than one quick handful of slack pull for a non-locker, but the brake hand never leaves the rope like in the Mammut video for taking in slack and lowering.
Are we watching the same video? At ~34 seconds when they are taking in slack the guy's hand never leaves the ropes. This method, the "slip and slide" is old school but perfectly safe. BUS is good for teaching to noobs who can't be trusted to grip firmly if a fall were to occur, but you do they exact same sliding motion when feeding slack with an atc, you certainly don't bring your feed hand down below the device to grip while you slide, and if you've ever had to catch someone when they blow a clip, then this should be a natural reaction to grip the brake strand when someone falls.
lukeweiss · · St. Johnsbury, VT · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 30

Seriously! I feel like we are in an alternate reality, seeing different videos.
The video technique shows the method good taking in slack on a leader.
Let me firmly reiterate: BUS is the standard TR belay technique on the alpine smart.

lukeweiss · · St. Johnsbury, VT · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 30

It is. No one is arguing otherwise.
Also, that problem on the grigri thread is not a problem for the alpine smart. You can have a hand on the climber side of the rope.
Seriously, this thread is built on misconceptions.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Climb for joy wrote: The issue is that he is letting go of the brake strand even though the hand is encircling the rope with no grip on it. This is how you lose control of the rope on a non-locking belay device if the climber falls just at that moment when the belayer lets go of the brake strand.
That´s us double-rope guys screwed then.

If you do a trawl of the manufacturers videos of using their devices you will find that Mammut are following the majority opinion in sliding the brake hand.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

its fine ...

the problem isnt with how the hands slides up the rope ... thats no worse than an ATC or grigri

the problem is folks trying to catch a fall with the hand still on the lever (theres a mammut video which shows this) .... it takes very little to hold that lever a bit open and for a slick rope to zip right through ...

theres been drops around here because of that

fortunately this vid shows the brake hand sliding down to the rope in a fall

as to thin slick ropes ... they may not "auto" lock properly ... however you should be able to feed em just fine as long as yr vigilant

i remember belaying someone once on a ~9mm thin supple rope with the 8.9-10.5mm smart alpine ... the fcuker simply wouldnt lock up ...

which is why being proficient with an ATC and practicing it is still very important when using these type of devices ... so you train the brake hand

;)

Daryl Allan · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,040

I figured those things to be among the most drop-your-partner proof devices out there. Then I got dropped about 20 feet with one a couple months back.

Really glad I was over 20 feet up at the time.

thecmacattack · · Denver, Colorado · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 30

people who bitch about the nuances of "perfect climbing technique" annoy me

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Dylan B. wrote:(2) With the 9.5 mm rope, the device no longer can hold my weight by itself on rappel [...] It's likely that this will also mean that the assisted braking for a lead fall will also be significantly compromised [...] Translated into a fall rather than just a hang, I suspect the 9.5 could go whipping through the device if the brake hand was not gripping tightly
Now I'm curious.

See, I've found in the gym that my Smart (the single-rope one) locks up more aggressively with greater impact forces- in fact if I pay rope out very slowly and gently, sometimes it never locks but if I jerk the climber strand it locks instantly.

Do you have any desire to set up a stopper knot on your 9.5mm and, say, jump off a chair to see what happens?

I'm trying to figure out how I can test this myself, but all I've got is an 8.2mm and a 9.8mm, and no solid anchors to jump on.
BigB · · Red Rock, NV · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 340

^^^Make sure you put a crash pad down first ;)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Climbing Gear Discussion
Post a Reply to "Proper belay technique for the Mammut Alpine Sm…"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.